Central Virginia
  • City of Charlottesville
  • Board of Architectural Review Meeting 7/21/2020
  • Auto-scroll

Board of Architectural Review Meeting   7/21/2020

Attachments
  • July Revised Agenda.pdf
  • Board of Architectural Review Packet.pdf
  • July BAR Meeting Minutes.pdf
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:00:02
      Well, good evening.
    • 00:00:04
      Welcome to the July 2020 Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review virtual meeting.
    • 00:00:10
      We should now be live on channel 10 and also we're continuing to stream on the city's social media channels.
    • 00:00:19
      My name is Robert Watkins.
    • 00:00:20
      I'm city staff and I'll be moderating tonight's meeting.
    • 00:00:24
      This is our second virtual meeting.
    • 00:00:26
      We held our first last month for June and there were no major snags.
    • 00:00:31
      So I think we're looking forward to another productive meeting tonight.
    • 00:00:35
      We have a pretty big agenda.
    • 00:00:38
      Before I hand things over to Carl Schwartz, our chair.
    • 00:00:42
      I'm going to go over a few guidelines and housekeeping tips to make sure that everything runs smooth for everybody participating.
    • 00:00:52
      So first, for the folks watching at home, I'll introduce the people participating in the meeting since they're not necessarily easily identified sitting on the dais.
    • 00:01:04
      So we have Carl Schwartz, our BAR chair, Vice Chair, Brett Gastinger, Jody Lehendro, Tim Moore,
    • 00:01:12
      Ron Bailey, Sonia Lengel, Andy McClure, James Zehmer, and our newest board member Cheri Lewis.
    • 00:01:19
      So we are happy that she's joining us for her first meeting, which is virtual.
    • 00:01:24
      We're also joined by city staff, Jeff Werner.
    • 00:01:29
      I ask that board members keep their cameras on during the length of the meeting, except for any brief breaks that you need to take.
    • 00:01:39
      And if you haven't already, and I think most people have, just make sure your head is positioned towards the top of the screen.
    • 00:01:48
      On channel 10, there's a banner that runs across the bottom and we don't want your faces to be blocked.
    • 00:01:55
      So discussions during our meeting last month happened a bit more organically, but we do have a busy agenda for tonight.
    • 00:02:04
      So when it comes time for the BAR to discuss each application, Carl, the chair, may call you each one by one to provide comments and deliberate.
    • 00:02:15
      And when you vote on each agenda item, I ask that you do a roll call vote where we each ask each of you to vote so we can clearly hear and record your voice for our minutes.
    • 00:02:28
      And if you have a question or comment during a discussion,
    • 00:02:33
      I recommend that you use the raise hand feature, which Ron found earlier.
    • 00:02:40
      If you go to participants and then click to the right of your name, I think you should find it there.
    • 00:02:47
      So hopefully that'll work.
    • 00:02:50
      For members of the public who are on the call right now who'd like to provide comments, there are several places in the agenda where you can speak.
    • 00:03:00
      First, before the board votes on the consent agenda, we allow time for comments from the public for items not on the agenda.
    • 00:03:08
      Then before the BAR deliberates on each individual application, we allow time for public comment.
    • 00:03:13
      In order to provide comment, we ask that you register and join the Zoom meeting if you're not already.
    • 00:03:19
      and then you'll become an attendee and then when we get to the comment portion of the agenda you can raise your hand using the raise hand feature that I just discussed and we'll unmute you and then the timer will begin and you'll have however much time you have for your comment.
    • 00:03:36
      Also, meeting attendees might use the Q&A feature in the call.
    • 00:03:41
      And for board members, it can be complicated to pay attention to discussions that are being spoken, as well as reading through the Q&A tabs.
    • 00:03:50
      So Jeff and I will periodically check to see if anything's typed there, and then we'll raise it to your attention.
    • 00:03:55
      So don't feel obliged to read through that.
    • 00:03:58
      We'll read anything to you.
    • 00:04:01
      There's also a chat feature in Zoom, which I know that some people have been using already.
    • 00:04:06
      And you're welcome to use it, but I'd like to remind anybody participating in the meeting that anything sent in the chat is subject to the Freedom of Information Act.
    • 00:04:16
      And as well as anything sent through the Q&A feature, it's all subject to FOIA.
    • 00:04:20
      So just be aware of that as we go through tonight's meeting.
    • 00:04:24
      Applicants who are already online, you're currently in the meeting as an attendee, which means you have limited audio and video capabilities.
    • 00:04:34
      When your project comes up on the agenda for review, I'll promote you to panelist so you'll have mute and unmute capabilities and you can turn on your video.
    • 00:04:44
      So when I promote you from attendee to panelist, I'll do that for you and you'll be booted out of the meeting temporarily
    • 00:04:52
      and then you'll automatically rejoin as panelists.
    • 00:04:55
      So don't worry if you're booted out of the meeting, just hang tight and you'll get back in.
    • 00:04:59
      It just takes a second.
    • 00:05:02
      also applicants during the staff and applicant presentations for each project.
    • 00:05:06
      I'm planning to share my screen to scan through pages of the application that you submitted just so we can all be on the same page.
    • 00:05:16
      And while the BAR deliberates, I'm happy to share my screen again to reference specific pages or drawings in your application to applicants and BAR members.
    • 00:05:26
      If you'd like me to flip to a specific page,
    • 00:05:29
      I just ask that you give me a verbal command and direct me to the page and then I'll do that.
    • 00:05:36
      Especially if you can give me a page number, that would make things easier for me.
    • 00:05:41
      This was raised earlier, but we didn't answer it.
    • 00:05:45
      During the last meeting in June, we had short breaks, five minutes every hour or so.
    • 00:05:52
      Is this something that you would like as a board to have?
    • 00:05:56
      And if so, how often would you like them?
    • 00:06:04
      We had five minute breaks last time every hour.
    • 00:06:07
      Would that be too often or should we do that again?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 00:06:14
      I'd like to just keep it at the discretion of the chair.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:06:19
      Well, how about when we finish each item, if somebody needs a break, we'll take a quick break at that point.
    • 00:06:25
      Sound good to everyone?
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:06:30
      That sounds good.
    • 00:06:33
      Okay, so if I'm forgetting anything that I shouldn't be telling you, please ask me now or as things go along.
    • 00:06:41
      And again, I'm moderating tonight, but Carl is leading the meeting as chair.
    • 00:06:47
      So hopefully everything runs smoothly.
    • 00:06:51
      That's all.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:06:52
      So it's all my fault if it doesn't.
    • 00:06:54
      All right.
    • 00:06:55
      So welcome to this regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review.
    • 00:06:59
      Staff will introduce each item followed by the applicant's presentation, which should not exceed 10 minutes.
    • 00:07:04
      The chair will then ask for questions from the public, followed by questions from the bar.
    • 00:07:08
      After questions are closed, the chair will ask for comments from the public.
    • 00:07:11
      For each application, members of the public are each allowed three minutes to ask questions and three minutes to offer comments.
    • 00:07:17
      Speakers shall identify themselves and provide their address.
    • 00:07:20
      Comments should be limited to the BAR's purview, that is regarding only the exterior aspects of the project.
    • 00:07:26
      Following the BAR's discussion and prior to taking action, the applicant will have up to three minutes to respond.
    • 00:07:31
      Thank you for participating, and please note that the times on the agenda are rough estimates only.
    • 00:07:38
      So we're going to start with matters from the public, not on the agenda.
    • 00:07:43
      If you also have a comment on anything on the consent agenda, now is the time to do so.
    • 00:07:48
      And I want to remind people that the consent agenda, any item that passes within the consent agenda does so with staff suggested motion for approval and any associated conditions.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:08:01
      If you're a member of the public and you have a comment, please use the raise hand feature and I will unmute you.
    • 00:08:10
      I'll wait for about 30 seconds.
    • 00:08:11
      Or maybe not 30 seconds because I recognize a lot of the names.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:08:28
      All right.
    • 00:08:29
      So the first item on the agenda is the consent agenda.
    • 00:08:34
      I understand we want to pull one item.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 00:08:39
      I would like to pull item number one from the consent agenda.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:08:42
      Okay.
    • 00:08:45
      Would anybody like to make a motion to approve the rest of the consent agenda?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 00:08:51
      So moved.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:08:53
      Second.
    • 00:08:58
      Robert, do you want to do a roll call or?
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:09:00
      Yes.
    • 00:09:01
      So Ron?
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 00:09:05
      Yes, please.
    • 00:09:06
      I approve.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:09:07
      Okay.
    • 00:09:07
      Yeah.
    • 00:09:08
      Thank you.
    • 00:09:08
      Mr. LaHindra?
    • 00:09:09
      Aye.
    • 00:09:11
      Ms.
    • 00:09:11
      Lengel?
    • SPEAKER_13
    • 00:09:13
      I approve.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:09:14
      Mr. Schwartz?
    • 00:09:15
      Yes.
    • 00:09:16
      Mr. Moore?
    • 00:09:17
      Aye.
    • 00:09:18
      Mr. Zehmer?
    • 00:09:19
      Aye.
    • 00:09:21
      Mr. McClure?
    • 00:09:22
      Aye.
    • 00:09:23
      Ms.
    • 00:09:24
      Lewis?
    • 00:09:25
      Aye.
    • 00:09:26
      Mr. Gastinger?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:09:29
      All right, so the consent agenda passes.
    • 00:09:33
      And now we are going to discuss 430 North First Street.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 00:09:41
      So I will begin, I think it's on me to explain why I wish to have it removed.
    • 00:09:47
      This project had received approval in June, July of 2018 for a series of
    • 00:10:00
      modifications.
    • 00:10:04
      At the time, the railing didn't receive a huge amount of conversation.
    • 00:10:09
      The railing design that was proposed and was submitted in the drawings is relatively straightforward vertical picket.
    • 00:10:18
      And it was identified as a steel guardrail with a one by four E-bay cap.
    • 00:10:24
      The board
    • 00:10:27
      approved the project, but one of the specific requirements was to come back and provide some details of what that railing would look like, which, to my knowledge, we never received until the railing that is shown in the photos was constructed.
    • 00:10:48
      In my mind, this is exactly why the BAR wished to see the details of the
    • 00:10:53
      railing prior to construction.
    • 00:10:56
      And I doubt if the constructed design would have been approved as it is wholly out of keeping with the modern style of the house.
    • 00:11:08
      So I kind of feel that I can approve the motion, which essentially gives our rubber stamp on the design as constructed.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:11:29
      I would agree with Brett in this regard.
    • 00:11:35
      What's our next step exactly?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:11:38
      I think first thing we need to do is see how many people on the board would like to see it come back to us.
    • 00:11:47
      We're ready to start with a motion for approval for it.
    • 00:11:56
      Who on the board is okay with it as it is?
    • 00:11:59
      Do we need a roll call or can I just do a simple raise of hands for this one?
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:12:03
      Yeah, you can do a straw poll.
    • 00:12:05
      That's fine.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:12:07
      I'm personally okay with it as it is.
    • 00:12:09
      I've been reviewing this project all along as new construction.
    • 00:12:13
      It's not completely in the style of the house, but I don't think it violates our guidelines.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 00:12:23
      I agree.
    • 00:12:23
      I do not think that it violates the guidelines either.
    • 00:12:26
      I think that it, again,
    • 00:12:29
      People may have different tastes, but I think it is a fairly modern design and fits the neighborhood.
    • 00:12:38
      I live in the neighborhood too.
    • 00:12:39
      It's just a half block away.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:12:41
      I'm also okay with doing this.
    • 00:12:43
      So that's three.
    • 00:12:48
      James, how do you feel?
    • 00:12:53
      I'm just going left to right on my screen.
    • SPEAKER_17
    • 00:12:55
      I think it's fine.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:13:02
      I'm a little confused.
    • 00:13:04
      What's the part that was there and the railing that was there and the railing that was put there after our meeting or the new one?
    • 00:13:13
      Is the new one the one on the street elevation?
    • 00:13:18
      Or is it the railing that is perpendicular to the street elevation?
    • 00:13:23
      It's the Chippendale Bridge railing.
    • 00:13:28
      It's the ones with the box inside of a box inside of a box.
    • 00:13:32
      I would like to see it pulled from the consent agenda.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:13:38
      It's been pulled.
    • 00:13:39
      Do you want to?
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:13:40
      Oh, I'm sorry.
    • 00:13:40
      No, I would like to see it.
    • 00:13:43
      We're voting.
    • 00:13:44
      We're talking about whether or not it should come back to us or Yes.
    • 00:13:49
      Okay.
    • 00:13:49
      Yes.
    • 00:13:50
      I want to see it come back to us.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:13:54
      So, Breck, I know what you're thinking.
    • 00:13:56
      Cheri?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 00:13:58
      I'm torn when I was on the BAR before we would have this happen and we were asked to do these retroactive approvals, which is essentially what we're trying to do here.
    • 00:14:08
      And the difficulty is just a denial means that the applicant has to demo.
    • 00:14:16
      I mean, it's a harsh penalty.
    • 00:14:19
      And I guess I'm not clear and maybe Breck or Carl could tell us exactly why this is being brought to us.
    • 00:14:28
      Two years after I understand there was a condition of staff approval, but maybe a little bit more history.
    • 00:14:36
      I don't know whether, to be honest, I don't know whether we as a city or we as a board didn't act on something or something fell through the cracks, which seems
    • 00:14:48
      In that case, I'm not sure I would deny because it's a pretty harsh penalty on the part of the applicant and the owner.
    • 00:14:54
      But if they didn't bring something back or there was some misstep on the part of the owner, I'd probably be more inclined.
    • 00:15:03
      I'm sorry to put those factors into consideration, but I just don't know the history of this is.
    • 00:15:10
      But I know I've been asked to vote on these before.
    • 00:15:12
      And the ramifications are pretty tough.
    • 00:15:17
      If they bring it back and it's not approved, it means they've got to demolish and rebuild.
    • 00:15:21
      So I'd like to just, if anybody could just tell me what happened between, maybe Jeff can speak to it, between 2018 and now, just a little bit more detail and sorry to trouble you with that.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:15:33
      Me or Carl?
    • 00:15:38
      Jeff, please.
    • 00:15:39
      Oh, yeah.
    • 00:15:40
      So just briefly,
    • 00:15:44
      I guess the best way to think about it is in terms of, you know, if this were before us, regardless of processes, is this look appropriate or not?
    • 00:15:58
      That's one side.
    • 00:15:59
      So when we, 30 months ago, and I guess leading into maybe beginning of this year, there was an evaluation of how COAs were proved,
    • 00:16:15
      You know, does it, you know, BAR either approves or it doesn't.
    • 00:16:21
      You know, there's no partials.
    • 00:16:23
      There's no so.
    • 00:16:24
      And not that this entirely fits into that, but this was where everything got approved.
    • 00:16:30
      But hey, bring this back and show us what it is.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 00:16:35
      I don't think this is a question.
    • 00:16:36
      Sorry to interrupt you, but I don't think this is that issue.
    • 00:16:39
      No.
    • 00:16:42
      The fact is they installed it and... And it is nothing like what was submitted.
    • 00:16:47
      I think that's the issue.
    • 00:16:48
      I don't think the issue is that they didn't submit the design, is that they built something completely different from what they submitted.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:16:54
      Right.
    • 00:16:55
      And so the fact that it was in place then it seemed, as I was saying earlier before the meeting, the easiest way to remedy it was, well, I can offer it for
    • 00:17:06
      the archive and this is what they installed or if, as we are right now, if there's decision to request that they resubmit.
    • 00:17:15
      I didn't want to say resubmit and then have you all say, well, why are we having this discussion?
    • 00:17:23
      So this is the best course of action.
    • 00:17:26
      But yeah, it would be to ask them.
    • 00:17:28
      And if it was brought in and it was denied, then it would be appealable to city council.
    • 00:17:36
      and if council denied the appeal, then it would be appealable to the courts.
    • 00:17:41
      So it would not be the BARs, the action is not final.
    • 00:17:48
      As far as BAR making someone tear something out, they would have options available to them.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:17:53
      And so the background to my opinion that it should come to us is that what was presented during their initial
    • 00:18:04
      COA meeting with us was a very simple and clean design that was compatible with the existing design.
    • 00:18:19
      What has been put in is a very assertive design that
    • 00:18:26
      it has a lot of character to it and should have come to the BAR and it certainly is not a simple compatible design with the existing railing.
    • 00:18:41
      This is very different and so I think this should have come to us certainly and we told them it should come to us and it didn't.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 00:18:51
      So hearing that chronology, I'd be in favor of the applicant resubmitting.
    • 00:18:55
      We're submitting again.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:18:58
      Ron has had his hand up.
    • 00:19:00
      I'm not sure if that was deliberate for a while.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 00:19:05
      It was deliberate.
    • 00:19:06
      I'm a bit puzzled by this.
    • 00:19:08
      I understand that it's not the design that was submitted.
    • 00:19:11
      I wasn't on the board then and so forth.
    • 00:19:14
      but as I understand our remit is it's supposed to be whether or not it's more or less in character with the neighborhood and it isn't that obtrusive to me, aesthetically an obtrusive design and bearing in mind what Cheri was saying earlier about resubmitting and we say that it has to be torn out, it seems like a pretty bad penalty for something which is simply not that egregious.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:19:51
      Carl, you're muted.
    • 00:19:55
      Sorry.
    • 00:19:56
      Sonya, I think you're the last one who hasn't had an opinion on this.
    • SPEAKER_13
    • 00:20:01
      So can you just walk me through the process?
    • 00:20:03
      So if they resubmit, then we debate what they've already done and whether or not they have to take it down.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:20:10
      Yeah, which preferably for me, I would like to do that now versus have them occupy time in another meeting.
    • 00:20:20
      So my goal is if we have five people who don't see a concern with this railing, I think we just move on.
    • 00:20:28
      But if there are five people who are concerned with the railing and would like them to change it out, then yes, it definitely needs to come back to us.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:20:35
      I think part of the resubmittal is to understand the genesis of this design.
    • 00:20:41
      I don't know that I would vote
    • 00:20:45
      against it necessarily, but this is a very assertive design and I'd like to know what the reasoning is behind it so that I can make an informed decision.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:21:01
      Yeah, in fact, if you recall, they had a
    • 00:21:04
      a photograph of some old, some porch, almost 1950s metal porch corner that they had contemplated using.
    • 00:21:17
      So there were sort of, there was a kind of an up in the air about what they were going to do.
    • 00:21:23
      So, but yeah, that's fine.
    • 00:21:26
      So we're down to, we're four to four, bottom of the ninth.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:21:30
      Sorry, Sonia.
    • SPEAKER_13
    • 00:21:32
      I think they should resubmit.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:21:34
      OK.
    • 00:21:34
      There you go, Jeff.
    • 00:21:37
      All right.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:21:39
      This one's going to be interesting.
    • SPEAKER_02
    • 00:21:41
      Do we need to make a motion on this?
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:21:43
      Yeah, I would make a motion that the BAR does not accept the, how did I word it, does not accept the submittal for the BAR record and cite the COA of
    • 00:22:03
      Brekke, you have the date there, request that this be submitted as a, be submitted for BAR approval.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:22:14
      So moved.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 00:22:18
      Second, it was July of 2018.
    • 00:22:21
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:22:28
      OK, so doing a roll call vote.
    • 00:22:31
      Mr. Bailey?
    • 00:22:32
      No.
    • 00:22:33
      Mr. McClure?
    • 00:22:34
      No.
    • 00:22:37
      Mr. Zehmer?
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:22:38
      I'm changing and saying yes, because I feel like what was put on the consent agenda doesn't even tell me that that was the problem.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:22:48
      OK.
    • 00:22:49
      Ms.
    • 00:22:49
      Lewis?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 00:22:50
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:22:52
      Mr. Gastinger?
    • 00:22:53
      Yes.
    • 00:22:54
      Mr. Lehendro?
    • 00:22:56
      Aye.
    • 00:22:57
      Ms.
    • 00:22:57
      Lengel?
    • SPEAKER_13
    • 00:22:58
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:22:59
      Mr. Schwartz.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:23:01
      We're voting for just denial of it.
    • 00:23:04
      No.
    • 00:23:05
      Okay.
    • 00:23:08
      Mr. Moore.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:23:09
      Yes, I think it should come back to us.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:23:19
      So moving on.
    • 00:23:20
      Now we have a certificate of appropriateness application for 320 West Main Street.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:23:26
      And before we launch into the staff report, I think we have Robert Nichols, the applicant, online.
    • 00:23:34
      So I'm going to promote him right now to panelists.
    • 00:23:39
      And then Jeff, I think it would be good to, or you can go ahead and do the staff report.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:23:44
      All right.
    • 00:23:44
      And by the way, Robert did send out the window cut sheets, which I've circulated.
    • 00:23:51
      I know that's late, but we do have that information.
    • 00:23:54
      So this is a,
    • 00:23:55
      A COA request for 320 West Main Street.
    • 00:23:59
      This building was constructed between 1890 and 1900 as the Sparks Garrett House.
    • 00:24:05
      It has been converted to commercial use.
    • 00:24:07
      It's a stucco-framed building.
    • 00:24:09
      It's T-shaped with Victorian detailing.
    • 00:24:13
      And the front porch has been enclosed.
    • 00:24:17
      And this is a contributing structure to the downtown ADC district.
    • 00:24:21
      And the COA request is for exterior alterations and signage, renovation of the enclosed porch and entrance.
    • 00:24:30
      This includes new pavers at the entrance terrace, replacement of six double hung windows on the front elevation, painting the building, the stucco trim doors and windows, the installation of steel swing gate on the west side, which will have cutout signage atop
    • 00:24:49
      and the installation of a monument sign at the front.
    • 00:24:53
      Stash recommendation to removing an outdated inappropriate enclosure, the front porch, you know, ideally it would be left open but these improvements are certainly an improvement on what's there and it does not remove or conceal any historic elements which will be brought to the surface.
    • 00:25:16
      Relative to the window replacements, we've determined that what is there, what will be replaced are not original.
    • 00:25:22
      There's a photo in the submittal that does not, an older photo, and you can see that what is there now is different.
    • 00:25:31
      As with all projects requiring signage, COA does apply to that, but it's still, the signage will require a separate signage permit that I review with the zoning folks.
    • 00:25:46
      There's three recommendations, and this was anchored in some of the information that wasn't available, but that new Marvin windows are being used indoors to be wood or aluminum clad.
    • 00:25:59
      If they have applied buttons, those are acceptable, but they must be appropriately dimensioned.
    • 00:26:06
      If it's insulated glass, there must be internal spacing bars aligned with the buttons.
    • 00:26:12
      that any exterior lighting will have lamping with a cup temperature not to exceed 3000 K, preferably be dimmable, and will comply with the city's dark sky ordinance.
    • 00:26:22
      And third, the applicant will provide staff for the BA archive cut sheets for the doors, windows, and exterior light fixtures.
    • 00:26:30
      And just one comment on that.
    • 00:26:32
      This is a monument sign, which are normally not permitted on West Main.
    • 00:26:38
      but this is, they are allowed for structures that had been residences and converted into commercial use.
    • 00:26:45
      So that sign is okay.
    • 00:26:50
      Any questions?
    • 00:26:51
      I hope I wasn't on mute.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:26:56
      You were good.
    • 00:26:57
      Thank you.
    • 00:26:58
      Are there any questions from the public?
    • 00:27:00
      Oh no, we go to Robert, I'm sorry.
    • 00:27:02
      Or Robert Nichols, right?
    • 00:27:05
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:27:06
      Am I audible?
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:27:08
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:27:09
      Good.
    • 00:27:10
      Thanks, Jeff, for the report.
    • 00:27:14
      Jeff, maybe if you go back to that, I think it's page three that, yeah.
    • 00:27:25
      So we're, let's see, we're not adding anything to the house, so most of what's happening here is,
    • 00:27:34
      kind of getting caught up really with conditions that have had degraded over time and had repairs that kind of weren't up to the significance of the house in the historic district.
    • 00:27:51
      So we're in general taking off applied finishes, particularly what's covering up that porch, the former screen porch now.
    • 00:28:02
      repairing existing wood trim and stucco and up in that gable end there there's some kind of fish scale wood shingles up there that are being repaired and painted.
    • 00:28:17
      In terms of kind of new design elements really that's pretty much concentrated on that the front porch area and then also the terrace out front.
    • 00:28:28
      The goal with the porch
    • 00:28:33
      And Jeff addressed it quite clearly.
    • 00:28:34
      We're not able to
    • 00:28:40
      give up the volume and the floor area of the porch as interior space.
    • 00:28:46
      But that said, one design goal was to kind of make legible the perimeter of the original building itself versus the volume of that screen porch.
    • 00:28:58
      The way things are now on that building, it just kind of reads as one distorted volume.
    • 00:29:05
      And our intention with the openness
    • 00:29:12
      Sticklike infill of the three casements and the transoms is to get that portion of the building to read as, if not as an open porch, as a nicely enclosed porch as it very well may have been at one point.
    • 00:29:33
      We don't have the photographic record of that there.
    • 00:29:38
      And then, right now, both sides of the entry walkway are somewhat shabby planting beds.
    • 00:29:48
      And we are going to clean them up.
    • 00:29:52
      The one on the left, as you face the building, will remain a planting bed and will be cleaner.
    • 00:29:58
      That tree that's shown there is existing.
    • 00:30:00
      And then on the right-hand side, as you look at the building, we'll have Bluestone Bay of Grace
    • 00:30:07
      just an outdoor area that's available for seating.
    • 00:30:10
      At this point, there's no particular occupancy that's known for the interior of the building.
    • 00:30:17
      So that's a speculative use of that area.
    • 00:30:22
      The gate that's shown between our building and the Comcast building, the swinging gate, that would be, for the most part, just wide open during business hours and then would be
    • 00:30:39
      depending on the occupancy of the building just to keep people from finding parking spaces back there.
    • 00:30:48
      I think let's see.
    • 00:30:51
      I believe that's all.
    • 00:30:53
      I submitted cut sheets of the windows and highlighted the profiles and cross-sectional details that we anticipate having on this project.
    • 00:31:02
      We're looking at a wood window with aluminum cladding, coated aluminum cladding on the exterior.
    • 00:31:10
      That would be both for the double homes and the casements.
    • 00:31:14
      That's it.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:31:18
      Robert, the only thing I would ask is what width were you planning for the
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:31:21
      Let me, I think I had indicated that the size that's like the first up from seven eights.
    • 00:31:34
      Okay.
    • 00:31:35
      But let me, I can pop that open while we're talking.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:31:38
      Okay, good.
    • 00:31:38
      Thank you.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 00:31:41
      All right.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:31:42
      So are there any, any questions from the public?
    • 00:31:47
      If you are a member of the public and you're here for comment, please use the raise hand feature and I will unmute you.
    • 00:31:58
      They all look like applicants, so I'm not seeing anyone.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 00:32:03
      All right, questions from the board.
    • SPEAKER_13
    • 00:32:08
      I have a question about the casement windows on the porch.
    • 00:32:11
      Are they the type of windows that when they're opened, you almost can't see them, they sort of disappear on the inside?
    • 00:32:19
      Or will they be opening so that you'll be able to see them from the outside?
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:32:24
      You would see them on the outside.
    • 00:32:25
      They're out swing and they would open to the exterior.
    • 00:32:31
      Again, I don't yet know and the owner doesn't yet know what the accuracy will be on the inside, you know, on that in that unit.
    • 00:32:44
      But specifically to answer your question, it would be quite obvious and they were out swinging cases.
    • SPEAKER_13
    • 00:32:49
      Okay, thank you.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:32:55
      Mr. Nichols, the porch infill, the
    • 00:33:02
      the exterior walls.
    • 00:33:04
      What's the material below the windows and between the windows behind the posts?
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:33:16
      That would be, that's a stucco to match.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:33:22
      So that it would match the historic stucco of the building itself.
    • 00:33:29
      Correct.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:33:38
      I think Jeff, you had asked about the mountain width.
    • 00:33:42
      I just looked at my submittal to you and I didn't highlight it.
    • 00:33:45
      The one we're shooting for is the one and one eighth inch width.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:33:49
      Fantastic.
    • 00:33:51
      Thank you.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:33:52
      It does have a divider.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:34:05
      Sorry, I keep muting myself.
    • 00:34:07
      With the spacer bar, just to confirm?
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:34:10
      Yes.
    • 00:34:10
      Okay.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 00:34:11
      Well, if there's no more questions.
    • 00:34:16
      James?
    • 00:34:17
      James, yeah.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:34:18
      Sorry, I had my hand raised.
    • 00:34:22
      So I just want to confirm, I believe I'm seeing your renderings correctly, that the, I guess what we're assuming are the original porch columns are all being retained.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:34:34
      Yeah, all that material that's shown there is currently in place.
    • 00:34:42
      It's a little bit of repair.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:34:44
      Sure.
    • 00:34:44
      So the other thing that, just for consideration, and I don't know if there's a way to do some more photographic research, but when I look really closely at the newspaper article photo,
    • 00:35:01
      which is on slide in the B.A.R.
    • 00:35:06
      packet, it's slide 65.
    • 00:35:08
      And then even also in that little inset photo that y'all had, actually a two over one.
    • 00:35:24
      You can kind of be confused because there's Venetian blinds behind them, but I think they're two over one instead of two over two.
    • 00:35:34
      So you might consider that.
    • 00:35:36
      Right.
    • 00:35:37
      If you want to try and match the historic window appearance.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:35:41
      Are you seeing?
    • 00:35:44
      So in that middle, on the second story, that middle image, I guess that was the one that adjusted two over two to me.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:35:53
      Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I think that's the Venetian blind showing through because you've got a really strong vertical mountain on all the windows on the upper sash.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:36:07
      Yeah, I see.
    • 00:36:08
      When you look in that kind of 45-degree little bump on the left-hand side of the first story, it looks very much like that.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:36:15
      Yeah, so you might, I don't know, I'd encourage y'all to see if Marvin, because clearly the ones that are there now are not original, so I don't have an objection to replacing them, but if there's a way to match what was historically there, I would support that.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:36:30
      Yeah, we're, the goal is to
    • 00:36:36
      specifically with regard to the window configuration, get back to what was there.
    • 00:36:40
      And so we're certainly not too far past that decision.
    • 00:36:44
      I would definitely pursue that.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:36:46
      OK, great.
    • 00:36:47
      Thank you.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:36:49
      James, I would point out in the landmark survey from what they did, the survey.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:36:58
      I think it's a 1979 photo.
    • 00:37:00
      Yeah, I read that.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:37:03
      And the survey calls them two over two windows.
    • 00:37:06
      And then the photograph.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:37:07
      I did see that.
    • 00:37:09
      You know, the slide on.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:37:16
      James, are you saying you think that they're three over two or something like that?
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:37:19
      I think they're two over one.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 00:37:22
      Oh, yeah, I agree.
    • 00:37:24
      I like that photo.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 00:37:26
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 00:37:26
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:37:27
      And Jody, I read that in the landmark survey and I agree that's what it says, but to some degree, pictures are better than a write-up sometimes.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:37:38
      I'm sending to Robert a 1979 photo.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:37:44
      Robert, if you can put that up on the... I thought you were turning it to me.
    • 00:37:49
      Sure.
    • 00:37:49
      Yes, I can.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:38:00
      That's the photo James was referring to.
    • SPEAKER_15
    • 00:38:02
      Right.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:38:09
      And it appears to be two over two.
    • 00:38:11
      This one?
    • 00:38:11
      Let me see.
    • 00:38:13
      I need to get back to where you all are.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:38:18
      There's definitely a line down the middle.
    • 00:38:19
      It's just, yeah, is it the Venetian blinds or is it?
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:38:23
      Well, Robert, do you have the photo I just emailed?
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:38:28
      Working on it.
    • 00:38:28
      One sec.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:38:29
      All right.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:38:33
      You know, I guess that's sort of what I'm encouraging is maybe a little bit more of a deep dive and see if you can't dig up some more historic photos that would help nail that detail down.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:38:53
      Sorry, I'm just having trouble pulling it up.
    • 00:38:56
      One moment.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:38:57
      But thanks, Tim.
    • 00:38:58
      That was
    • 00:39:05
      Look at that canopy there.
    • 00:39:10
      Well, I think there's also some storm window action going on there.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:39:16
      Yeah, that's what I was wondering.
    • 00:39:17
      Or even possibly a bug screen on the lower half as part of the storm window action.
    • 00:39:22
      It could also help disguise what's really going on behind it.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:39:25
      Yeah.
    • 00:39:26
      Robert, can you zoom in on that?
    • 00:39:30
      It's obviously from when it was in the snail.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:39:35
      I'm trying to open it outside of Outlook and I can't zoom into it.
    • 00:39:39
      I'm sorry.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:39:40
      I'm going to send you the link if that helps.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:39:54
      I hear thunder, so if my feed cuts out, I'm sorry.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:40:05
      While we're waiting, Mr. Nichols, I noticed in that photograph that there are spindles between that horizontal bar
    • 00:40:22
      above the brackets of the historic porch and the underside of the cornice.
    • 00:40:29
      And I don't see them in your rendering.
    • 00:40:32
      Are they still there?
    • 00:40:34
      They're not still there.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:40:35
      Yeah, I had seen those as well.
    • 00:40:41
      Boy, it would really look good.
    • 00:40:43
      Would it?
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:40:44
      There's actually a railing, Jerry.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 00:40:48
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:40:52
      down at the bottom half too.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:40:57
      I guess the one thing that seems, I guess we're a little random here, but one thing that seems a little odd to me is actually the introduction of the stucco in that glass wall, you know, basically the glazed in porch seems a little counterintuitive to me.
    • 00:41:14
      I mean, I think the glass and it's playing with the columns and everything is all fine.
    • 00:41:21
      It just feels a little odd for Stucco to be in there.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:41:24
      Yeah, I agree with you, Tim.
    • 00:41:28
      As Jody had asked, and I realize I agree, and it kind of fights against what I said our strategy was to kind of delineate the boundary of the original volume or the internal volume.
    • 00:41:47
      If we were to change that, I think we would
    • 00:41:52
      just go to a tight wood trim that's painted just kind of for a tongue and groove situation vertical that's filling in those remaining panels.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:42:07
      So are we decided on the windows?
    • 00:42:16
      That looks like two over two to me.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:42:18
      That's what I'd be surprised, given that they're even, that they wouldn't be 2 over 2.
    • 00:42:23
      If they were more of a cottage hung, then maybe they'd be 2 over 1.
    • 00:42:26
      But the house just doesn't strike me that way.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 00:42:31
      Yeah, I've seen them both ways.
    • 00:42:32
      But this is looking more like 2 over 2.
    • 00:42:34
      And since that's what the Landmark Survey says, then I'm more inclined to go back to that.
    • 00:42:39
      All right.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:42:41
      I guess, are there any more questions?
    • 00:42:42
      Or can we, any more questions for the, or no, yeah.
    • 00:42:50
      All right.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:42:50
      Are there any comments from the public?
    • 00:42:55
      Raise your hand if you're in the queue.
    • 00:42:56
      I'm not seeing anything.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:42:59
      Tim, is that your only concern?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:43:12
      Who's?
    • 00:43:13
      You.
    • 00:43:14
      Oh, me.
    • 00:43:14
      I didn't know you were trying to meet.
    • 00:43:15
      There's a lightning bolt.
    • 00:43:16
      I didn't hear you over the lightning bolt.
    • 00:43:19
      Thunderclap.
    • 00:43:21
      Yeah, that's the only one.
    • 00:43:22
      It just seems a little counterintuitive.
    • 00:43:24
      I mean, it all reads nicely together, but then if I go down the next level, it's sort of weird for Stucco to be behind, you know, sort of the spindles and all that stuff.
    • 00:43:33
      It just seems like Robert was saying it makes more sense that that's a wood box, that's all.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:43:38
      I would, am I still visible?
    • 00:43:41
      You are, right?
    • 00:43:42
      If I'd be willing to
    • 00:43:45
      Agreed to change to wood.
    • 00:43:48
      We could make that part of a motion.
    • 00:43:52
      I'd be happy to go along with it.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:43:57
      Maybe just to make this a little more efficient.
    • 00:44:00
      Does anyone have any concerns with the project that they think violate our guidelines?
    • 00:44:09
      All right.
    • 00:44:12
      Is everyone generally in agreement that it would be preferable to have wood as opposed to stucco for the infill of the porch?
    • 00:44:25
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:44:28
      Otherwise it creates a kind of false historicism.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:44:32
      Good.
    • 00:44:33
      Somebody please make a motion.
    • 00:44:40
      or I can break our little rules and do it myself.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:44:43
      No, I'll do it.
    • 00:44:44
      I'll do it.
    • 00:44:45
      It's very exciting.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:44:46
      And I just offered that we, in the motion, we cite the Marvin windows and that they'll have the 1-8th STL with a spacer bar.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:45:10
      All right, so having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including city design guidelines for site work, rehabilitations, signage, I move to find the proposed alterations, satisfy the BAR's criteria and are compatible with this property and other properties.
    • 00:45:35
      We would like to see the following things confirmed.
    • 00:45:40
      That is that the porch is entirely built of wood and that the two over two windows have SDLs.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:45:51
      I make an amendment that we do not want to see them confirm that just that's what they'll do.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:45:57
      Yes, that's that's that's fine.
    • 00:45:59
      Okay.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:46:00
      What action is that if they
    • 00:46:05
      They will confirm that it's of wood.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:46:09
      No confirmation, just they will do, instead of stucco, they will have a wood infill within the porch.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:46:18
      Second.
    • 00:46:20
      Do we give them latitude about how they paint it?
    • 00:46:22
      Because I mean, the one thing that I think works there is that the stucco, the coloring of the stucco allows the porchiness of it to stand forward.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:46:32
      Color scheme would remain.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:46:34
      Remain.
    • 00:46:36
      Does that make sense to everybody?
    • 00:46:38
      Yeah.
    • 00:46:39
      I think we have a mistake to make it all the dark color.
    • 00:46:43
      I mean, you wouldn't see it until it all be gone.
    • 00:46:45
      OK.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:46:46
      Jody, did you second?
    • 00:46:48
      Yes.
    • 00:46:48
      Is that you?
    • 00:46:49
      OK.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:46:50
      With your modification.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:46:51
      Yes.
    • 00:46:52
      And then can I just confirm, Ken, before a vote, that Robert, is there any exterior lighting with this?
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:47:02
      I'm sorry.
    • 00:47:03
      You wrote me about that the other day.
    • 00:47:07
      There would be some small little bit of light on that monument sign and what I would think we would get some state lights, you know, low to the ground that would illuminate that exterior terrace.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:47:24
      Mr. Chair, would you be willing to add the lighting to that motion and
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:47:33
      Tim, how would you accept this amendment?
    • 00:47:36
      Any lighting needs to meet our guidelines, needs to have a color temperature less than 3,000 Kelvin, needs to... Site the condition in the staff report if you wish.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:47:52
      Oh, is that it?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:47:53
      Thank you.
    • 00:47:54
      Haha, it is there.
    • 00:47:56
      So yeah, any exterior lighting
    • 00:47:59
      Well, the color temperature not to exceed 3000 K will be preferably dimmable and will comply with the city's dark sky ordinance.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:48:06
      Yeah, that works.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:48:09
      I love it.
    • 00:48:10
      So we're not going to review the lighting.
    • 00:48:12
      Jeff will confirm that it meets our guidelines.
    • 00:48:15
      Good.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 00:48:17
      Thank you.
    • 00:48:18
      Shall we say it's limited to the items that Robert suggested, the lighting?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:48:25
      I think that's fair, Tim.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:48:27
      Yes, that's fair.
    • 00:48:28
      Yep.
    • 00:48:29
      So do we want to just add that to the motion or, Robert, is that something that, not Robert Nichols, but I mean Robert Watkins, is that something you can do?
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:48:41
      Yes.
    • 00:48:41
      Yes, we can.
    • 00:48:42
      OK.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:48:42
      And Robert Nichols, does that make sense to you?
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:48:45
      Yeah.
    • 00:48:46
      And we wouldn't have no intention to light any vertical surfaces of the building.
    • 00:48:50
      So paved terrace surface and then the monument side.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:49:00
      Jody, your second still stands?
    • 00:49:02
      It certainly does.
    • 00:49:03
      All right.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:49:04
      I'll call a roll call vote.
    • 00:49:06
      Mr. Bailey, you're on mute.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:49:13
      Actually, I don't even see him.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:49:15
      You're on mute, Ron.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 00:49:17
      I keep trying to unmute.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:49:19
      Oh, sorry.
    • 00:49:21
      We can hear you now.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 00:49:25
      I am saying yes.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:49:27
      OK, thank you.
    • 00:49:27
      Sorry.
    • 00:49:29
      Mr. McClure.
    • 00:49:30
      Yes.
    • 00:49:32
      Mr. Zehmer.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 00:49:33
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:49:34
      Ms.
    • 00:49:35
      Lewis.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 00:49:35
      Aye.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:49:37
      Mr. Gastinger.
    • 00:49:37
      Ms.
    • SPEAKER_17
    • 00:49:41
      Rosen.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:49:42
      Oh, yeah.
    • 00:49:44
      Breck, we didn't hear that.
    • 00:49:45
      Sorry.
    • 00:49:45
      Aye.
    • 00:49:46
      OK.
    • 00:49:47
      Mr. Leandro.
    • 00:49:48
      Aye.
    • 00:49:49
      Ms.
    • 00:49:49
      Langel.
    • SPEAKER_13
    • 00:49:50
      Aye.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:49:51
      Mr. Schwartz.
    • 00:49:52
      Yes.
    • 00:49:53
      and Mr. Moore.
    • 00:49:55
      Thank you.
    • SPEAKER_20
    • 00:49:58
      Thank you.
    • 00:50:01
      Robert, this sign permit application is still needed, but your review of the signage is good to go for that.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:50:11
      Yeah, when you get the signage decided, you'll just submit for a sign permit through zoning.
    • 00:50:17
      And then we sit down, we review those and I just make sure that it's not
    • 00:50:22
      Significantly different from what we've reviewed here.
    • 00:50:26
      Doesn't have to be exact, but we have the idea.
    • 00:50:30
      Obviously, it'll have different names on it, things like that, but it will comply with this.
    • 00:50:35
      And then I just sign off on that, and we're good to go.
    • 00:50:37
      OK, good to see you all.
    • 00:50:39
      Thank you.
    • 00:50:40
      All right, thanks, Robert.
    • 00:50:42
      Hey, Robert, pull down that marker on wherever Robert put it, the sign up on the telephone pole or wherever it is.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:50:51
      Hey Jeff, why don't you turn your camera down a little bit so we're not all looking at the light bulb on top of your head.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:50:58
      It's my angelic from above thing.
    • 00:51:02
      I don't think so.
    • 00:51:07
      Your halo.
    • 00:51:09
      Thank you.
    • 00:51:12
      I reach for anything I can get, man.
    • 00:51:14
      Okay, next up is 518
    • 00:51:18
      Do we have, is George and I know John Epperly were going to be available.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:51:22
      Are they Yes, they're both here and George and John right now I'm going to promote you to panelists.
    • 00:51:28
      So you're going to be booted out of the meeting momentarily.
    • 00:52:17
      OK, I'll go ahead and share my screen for the application.
    • 00:52:21
      And we can move towards the staffer.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:52:31
      I'll get going.
    • 00:52:32
      So this is 518 17th Street Northwest.
    • 00:52:38
      It's a Victorian house constructed in 1899 for Randolph Balthus and some Maplewood Cemetery trivia.
    • 00:52:44
      That's where he is buried.
    • 00:52:47
      This house remained a single-family dwelling until at least the 1970s.
    • 00:52:49
      It was converted into a sorority house use.
    • 00:52:53
      It's a two-story house with weatherboard cladding, a steep hip roof, and a wrap-around veranda.
    • 00:52:59
      And it is a contributing structure in the Rugby Road University Circle Venable Neighborhood ADC District.
    • 00:53:05
      And this is a COA request to remove the existing slate and replace it with an imitation slate shingles.
    • 00:53:14
      These would match what was approved by the BAR for use on the addition that's to the south.
    • 00:53:19
      That was in December 2011.
    • 00:53:20
      The flashing in the valley and on the cap is to be copper.
    • 00:53:29
      And I spoke with the applicant, as I mentioned earlier, the ridge cap and hip caps.
    • 00:53:36
      They are willing to go with that.
    • 00:53:38
      You see that profiled cap there, and I'll let them address that.
    • 00:53:43
      The internal gutters will be abandoned, replaced with eave-mounted six-inch half-round gutters and four-inch round downspouts.
    • 00:53:51
      The gutters will be attached to the roof sheathing, and this will allow the existing cornice profile to remain.
    • 00:53:57
      The new gutters and downspouts to be aluminum and painted white, and no work is proposed on the lower porch roof or on the southern addition.
    • 00:54:06
      Per the BA Art Guidelines, artificial slate is an acceptable substitute when replacement is needed.
    • 00:54:11
      And I've talked to Mr. Stone
    • 00:54:14
      There's quite some time about this and they have made repeated efforts to repair leaks upstairs and the problems persist.
    • 00:54:22
      And so in lieu of just ineffective spot repairs, their roofer has recommended replacement of the entire roof.
    • 00:54:30
      And with replacement, of course, the use of simulated slate is less expensive than new.
    • 00:54:35
      But again, it is consistent with our guidelines.
    • 00:54:38
      Gutters and downspouts, BAR has approved requests to remove internal gutters.
    • 00:54:43
      and replaced with the eave-mounted type.
    • 00:54:47
      The applicant proposes using painted aluminum which painted white with gutters and downspouts and that will actually help maintain visually what's there now.
    • 00:54:57
      Staff does recommend approval of the COA with the conditions that the exposed valley flashing the dimension is maintained and if you go one more page, they did provide a sheet for that
    • 00:55:13
      We talked about the ridge and hip cap profile and installation of the new downspouts at the same locations that they are existing.
    • 00:55:22
      Those were the only things that we recommended.
    • 00:55:24
      George and John, if you have anything to add, it's yours.
    • SPEAKER_06
    • 00:55:31
      No, I think you've covered everything.
    • 00:55:35
      Yeah, we're trying to make it go back just exactly the way it is with the exception of the gutters.
    • 00:55:40
      The Philadelphia style gutters are just kind of obsolete at this point.
    • 00:55:43
      And going with a shank mounted to the to the substrate gives the strongest style of install for the you know, going with the slate roof, the synthetic slate.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 00:56:07
      Well, if that's it, do we have any questions from the public?
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 00:56:11
      Here in the queue and you have a comment, you can use the raise your hand feature.
    • 00:56:18
      And I'm not seeing anything.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 00:56:19
      Okay.
    • 00:56:21
      Questions from the board?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 00:56:27
      Tim, you're muted.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:56:31
      Is that lead coated copper on there now with the slate?
    • SPEAKER_06
    • 00:56:35
      It's galvanized metal.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:56:36
      Oh, galvanized metal.
    • 00:56:37
      OK.
    • 00:56:37
      Yeah.
    • 00:56:40
      Do you have any concerns about the copper, if you're putting copper in the valleys and you have aluminum gutters?
    • SPEAKER_06
    • 00:56:49
      They're not going to be in contact with each other.
    • 00:56:53
      So we're not worried about any of the galvanization.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:56:57
      OK.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:57:00
      So this is, well, you know who it is.
    • 00:57:04
      Mr. Epperly, I'm curious about the built-in gutter and that this looks unusual to me for a built-in gutter.
    • 00:57:15
      Is it just above the crown molding on the farthest part of the eave and that then there's a sheet metal fascia behind it that goes to then a
    • 00:57:32
      A step out for the slate roof?
    • SPEAKER_06
    • 00:57:36
      Essentially what it is, is from the very edge of the roof, the very edge of the eave, it comes up about eight inches and that's just covered with metal.
    • 00:57:48
      And then essentially it's a two by four standing on end that's mounted to the roof.
    • 00:57:54
      And then that's all wrapped with the galvanized metal, goes up in underneath of the existing slate.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:58:02
      Okay, so it's a Philadelphia-style gutter.
    • SPEAKER_06
    • 00:58:05
      Yeah, Philadelphia-style gutter, yes.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:58:07
      And so we'll, geez, I wish I had a cursor or control of the cursor.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:58:18
      Hey, Jody, I called it an internal gutter because of your comment about Philadelphia gutters.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:58:24
      Now I'm feeling... Well, I'm just wanting to make sure that
    • 00:58:31
      in the final, in the change that we keep that strong shadow line there below the Philadelphia gutter somehow.
    • 00:58:43
      And I wish I could see a detail of how that's going to be done.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 00:58:49
      You mean at the overhang or at that corner?
    • 00:58:54
      Above the overhang.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 00:58:56
      For what it's worth, Jody, you can annotate if you go up to view options and select annotate.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 00:59:04
      The thing is, as soon as you get rid of that 2x4 that stands up and that skirt that's below it that goes down to the drip line, you're going to lose that and you're also going to have a gutter sitting in front of your crown.
    • 00:59:15
      You pretty much lose that detail altogether, because then the slate's got to come all the way down to the drip edge at the top of the graph.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:59:20
      So the slate, can you see that?
    • 00:59:26
      God, that's the ugliest line I've ever seen in my life.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 00:59:29
      Yes, we can see it.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 00:59:30
      It has color, though.
    • 00:59:33
      Thank you.
    • 00:59:34
      So between that, we're going to lose this shadow, this strong horizontal shadow line that is very prevalent on the elevations.
    • 00:59:45
      Any creative way to still have the slate come to that line and just have it sheet metal below there to still give that horizontal line instead of taking the slate all the way down to the top of the crown.
    • 01:00:08
      I mean, it concerns me.
    • 01:00:10
      I don't know if it concerns the rest of the board.
    • SPEAKER_06
    • 01:00:12
      It essentially would be reworking the Philadelphia-style gutter.
    • 01:00:23
      If you're going to keep that, obviously you're not going to be using the half-round gutters, because water's not going to get to them, because that's a stopping point.
    • 01:00:31
      That's the existing design.
    • 01:00:34
      Right.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:00:34
      The half-rounds are going to be down here, though.
    • 01:00:36
      That's the top of them.
    • SPEAKER_06
    • 01:00:39
      That's correct.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:00:40
      OK.
    • 01:00:41
      And it's that space in between that I'm trying to preserve somehow.
    • SPEAKER_06
    • 01:00:46
      With our proposed design, that's going to go away.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:00:50
      Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of.
    • SPEAKER_06
    • 01:00:51
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:00:52
      But again, that's a concern for me.
    • 01:00:55
      I'm not sure how the rest of the board feels.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:00:58
      This has always been one of the conundrums about Philadelphia gutters and going to half rounds.
    • 01:01:03
      I mean, we definitely allow it.
    • 01:01:08
      You know, it's six of one, half a dozen of another.
    • 01:01:13
      I mean, obviously, if there's a failure, it gets into the wall, which is why people don't like them.
    • 01:01:18
      Although this one, it does look like it's actually outside of the wall.
    • 01:01:21
      But there's just a longevity issue or maintenance issue there.
    • 01:01:27
      On the other hand, you ruin the crisp, clean lines of the eve.
    • 01:01:33
      I could see advocating keeping it on the front elevation or this public, excuse me, public elevations that it may be not, you know, where it's not visible from the street, perhaps.
    • 01:01:44
      I mean, I understand why they want to do it.
    • 01:01:47
      But, you know, like my own house, I put the gutters back in and I clean them all the time.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:01:55
      Well, trust me, I understand it too.
    • 01:01:56
      And I, in my own practice, I filled in many a built in gutter.
    • 01:02:00
      and put a half-ounce on the outside.
    • 01:02:03
      This just is such a distinctive, or to me, it adds a distinctive character to the exterior elevation, that strong horizontal line.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:02:20
      Are there any other questions from the board?
    • 01:02:24
      Sounds like we're kind of getting into comments.
    • 01:02:26
      We are.
    • 01:02:26
      Sorry about that.
    • 01:02:27
      Just making sure.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:02:30
      Oh yeah, never mind.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:02:34
      All right, so any comments from the public?
    • 01:02:45
      Sounds like a no.
    • 01:02:45
      So yeah, I guess now comments from the board.
    • 01:02:51
      So we've got the gutter concern, or the concern about maintaining the horizontal line within the Philadelphia gutter.
    • 01:03:00
      Are there other comments from the board?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:03:06
      I could see one compromise might be to basically have an extended drip edge that at least mimics the transition from the slate to the outside edge of the roof where you actually would pull that up and hold the slate back.
    • 01:03:22
      So you would dispense with the two by four stand up, but you would still you would have an eight inch panel or whatever.
    • 01:03:28
      And so the last
    • 01:03:29
      Row of slate would stop six or seven inches above that.
    • 01:03:34
      So you'd have a wide piece of flashing there that goes back up under the slate.
    • SPEAKER_06
    • 01:03:39
      Yeah, that would be essentially omitting the first course of the new slate.
    • 01:03:43
      Correct.
    • 01:03:44
      And just having copper flashing there instead.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:03:46
      It's almost similar to the wash that you have within that gable end.
    • 01:03:52
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:03:54
      Is that getting replaced also?
    • SPEAKER_06
    • 01:03:57
      No.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:03:59
      Let them in color and match because you're going to paint the copper?
    • SPEAKER_06
    • 01:04:06
      No, that's been painted a different color.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:04:10
      John, the starter course on the slate, is that a double?
    • 01:04:15
      It is.
    • 01:04:16
      So that's got a little bit of shadow to it as well.
    • 01:04:18
      It does.
    • 01:04:19
      Yes, it does.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:04:22
      I like that.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:04:25
      Maybe, how about we, just to see where we stand,
    • 01:04:29
      because I do think this opens up some additional complications, such as now we are going to have copper touching the aluminum gutters.
    • 01:04:38
      Is there anyone on the board that is content with this as proposed?
    • 01:04:44
      I myself would approve it as opposed, because I think we do have a precedent for replacing Philadelphia gutters with half rounds.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:04:54
      I agree with you.
    • 01:04:54
      I think it has proposed.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:04:57
      In favor.
    • 01:04:58
      Five.
    • 01:05:00
      I agree.
    • 01:05:00
      All right.
    • 01:05:01
      So I think the concerns noted, but I think we have enough for a motion for approval.
    • 01:05:08
      If anybody would like to make it.
    • 01:05:11
      Or if there anyone who wants to bring up any other concerns that we need to consider.
    • 01:05:14
      I don't want to cut anyone off.
    • 01:05:22
      All right.
    • 01:05:24
      Who wants to, let's go for this one.
    • 01:05:31
      I've got it.
    • 01:05:32
      Thank you, Brooke.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:05:34
      Having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including city design guidelines for rehabilitation, I move to find that the proposed roof replacement satisfies BAR's criteria, is compatible with this property and other properties in the Rugby Road, University Circle, Venable, Neighborhood, ADC District, that the BAR approves the application as submitted.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:05:54
      Second.
    • 01:05:55
      Would you have any issue with adding staff's recommended conditions?
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:06:02
      Oh shoot, I have an older version.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:06:03
      Right above the motion.
    • 01:06:04
      Oh.
    • 01:06:06
      The recommended conditions are to match the existing dimensions of the exposed valley flashing, that the ridge and hip cap profile will match or be similar to the existing profiled metal cap, and that the new downspouts will be at the same locations as the existing.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:06:24
      Yes, I accept those.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:06:27
      OK.
    • 01:06:27
      I'll second that.
    • 01:06:29
      I was going to say as an aside, it already does have a white gutter on the lower roof, FYI, right?
    • 01:06:38
      So I think it's still within sort of the system of the roof.
    • 01:06:40
      I just would have preferred to see the language of the Philadelphia gutter.
    • 01:06:47
      I'm with Jody on that one.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 01:06:52
      Second.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 01:06:54
      OK.
    • 01:06:58
      So I'll do a roll call vote.
    • 01:07:00
      Mr. Bailey?
    • 01:07:01
      Approve.
    • 01:07:03
      Mr. McClure?
    • 01:07:03
      Move.
    • 01:07:05
      Mr. Zehmer?
    • 01:07:06
      Move.
    • 01:07:08
      Mr. Lehendra?
    • 01:07:10
      No.
    • 01:07:12
      Mr. Gastinger?
    • 01:07:13
      Aye.
    • 01:07:15
      Ms.
    • 01:07:15
      Lewis?
    • 01:07:16
      Aye.
    • 01:07:18
      Ms.
    • 01:07:18
      Lengel?
    • SPEAKER_17
    • 01:07:20
      Aye.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 01:07:21
      Mr. Schwartz?
    • 01:07:22
      Yes.
    • 01:07:23
      And Mr. Moore?
    • 01:07:24
      No.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 01:07:30
      All right, thank you.
    • 01:07:31
      And George, you pulled a sign down off of the fence to wherever Robert put it up and you guys are good to go.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:07:47
      So our next certificate of appropriateness is for 411 First Street.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 01:07:55
      And before we start the staff presentation, let me promote Julie Dixon to panelist.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:08:05
      Actually, let me just check with everyone.
    • 01:08:06
      It has been a little over an hour.
    • 01:08:08
      Are we good to keep going or does anyone need a break?
    • 01:08:10
      I don't see any strong opinion.
    • 01:08:17
      So all right, let's keep going.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 01:08:21
      Okay, this is a COA.
    • 01:08:26
      Request for 411 First Street North.
    • 01:08:30
      This is the George Macris House.
    • 01:08:32
      It was built between 1882 and 1889, likely built as a rental property.
    • 01:08:38
      Compared with neighboring houses of a similar scale in the block, the subject building has fewer architectural embellishments.
    • 01:08:45
      It's a two-story, three-bay brick house situated on a high basement.
    • 01:08:49
      It is fronted by a wood porch with Victorian trim.
    • 01:08:52
      It is a contributing structure.
    • 01:08:54
      in the north downtown ADC district.
    • 01:08:56
      This is a request for removal of an existing basement window, and this would be on the south corner, the front elevation, and to install a new entry door.
    • 01:09:09
      And from the driveway to the door, construct stone steps with landing and a stone retaining wall.
    • 01:09:18
      Reconstruct the front porch stairs in order to accommodate the new basement entry and
    • 01:09:24
      install a new light fixture on the wall.
    • 01:09:26
      And just as a note, you're talking to the applicant, their preferences to, there is a door at a center opening underneath the stairs.
    • 01:09:36
      And I know we had discussed swapping their preferences to leave that door in place and to install a new door.
    • 01:09:44
      And staff is okay with that.
    • 01:09:49
      And so then the,
    • 01:09:52
      From staff's recommendations, we're okay with this request and with only a couple of conditions.
    • 01:10:00
      One is to remove only the proposed window and install the new door in the opening.
    • 01:10:06
      Again, leave in place the existing door below the front porch per the applicant's preference.
    • 01:10:14
      To retain and store the existing window should that opening ever be later restored.
    • 01:10:19
      that the existing masonry opening is not altered other than below the existing window.
    • 01:10:24
      That is the height and the width will not be altered.
    • 01:10:28
      We don't have a cut sheet for the exterior light fixture, but again, the same condition of the color temperature not to exceed 3000K compliance with the city's dark sky regs.
    • 01:10:40
      And that the BAR should require the applicant to provide for the BAR archive a record of
    • 01:10:48
      cut sheet for the doors and any exterior light fixtures.
    • 01:10:57
      Julie, you're on deck.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 01:11:05
      I think you're muted.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:11:08
      All right, you got me now?
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 01:11:10
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:11:12
      Great.
    • 01:11:12
      Well, thank you, Jeff.
    • 01:11:13
      I'm not sure how much additional detail you all want me to provide, but the issue really is the desired use of that lower level of their home for an aging in place relative and ease of transition of getting that relative in and out of the house, which can't happen comfortably under the porch as it's currently configured because of the lack of
    • 01:11:42
      head height and the transitions being challenging.
    • 01:11:45
      So I think they feel like they can work very easily with the door in this existing masonry opening.
    • 01:11:52
      I actually, when you brought up a cut sheet question, have a question for the BAR, which I don't know if this is the appropriate time to share it.
    • 01:12:00
      You all can ask me questions if you want to interrupt, but one pressing issue is really that door and its exterior material, because it will remain uncovered.
    • 01:12:13
      And so, you know, I don't think that a solid wood door, which would be our preference, would work very successfully there unprotected from the weather.
    • 01:12:24
      So I don't know if the BAR has a history of approving a clad door on the exterior facade like that, but that's a fair question that we probably need to wrestle down in terms of that door cut sheet if the new use for that masonry opening is acceptable.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:12:45
      Well, maybe you could describe to us what your preferred door would be.
    • 01:12:49
      What would it look like?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:12:51
      Well, the preferred door would be a Marvin-clad door, uncovered obviously as it is.
    • 01:12:58
      And ideally, we'd like it to be half glass, similar to the one that's there.
    • 01:13:07
      Originally, when I submitted to Jeff, we preferred the idea of
    • 01:13:14
      reusing the existing door in that new location.
    • 01:13:17
      But I can understand from the Secretary of the Interior's point of view why that might not be the preferable solution.
    • 01:13:24
      So if you go to a new door, I think staying within keeping architecturally is important.
    • 01:13:30
      Getting additional light in that room because they're used to having the window there would be preferable.
    • 01:13:36
      So a half light, half wood panel door would be the goal.
    • 01:13:41
      Solid wood clad.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:13:49
      Well, if that's your presentation, are there any questions from the public?
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 01:13:56
      If you're in the queue, you can raise your hand.
    • 01:13:59
      But I just see applicants.
    • 01:14:03
      OK.
    • 01:14:04
      Any questions from the board?
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:14:08
      So just for some clarity, the plans that were submitted
    • 01:14:15
      Well, I think in subsequent conversations with Jeff, we determined that it might be preferable to store the window.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:14:42
      So leave the existing door in place to store the existing window so that the only change would be to that existing window masonry opening.
    • 01:14:54
      And so to store the existing bricks and existing window for replacement at a future date is totally acceptable to the applicants.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:15:08
      And I have a question with regard to the stairways going to the upper porch.
    • 01:15:12
      The new door will be behind that stairway still, correct?
    • 01:15:16
      Correct.
    • 01:15:17
      It will be obscuring the new door.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:15:19
      Correct.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:15:20
      OK.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 01:15:24
      Yeah, Jody, last time it asked for a, or mentioned a section through the wall.
    • 01:15:29
      And Julie did provide one, which is with the submittal kind of showing that slice looking through what the space is,
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:15:42
      I have a question.
    • 01:15:42
      Is there a gutter system on the porch?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:15:47
      I don't think there is.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:15:48
      I don't see it in a photograph, and so I think about the water coming off the side of that porch roof right above that door.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:15:59
      Yeah, and it's hard to imagine that the stairs have held up as long as they have with it splashing.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:16:03
      There's a downspout showing up on the right of the porch.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:16:08
      Look at my photos.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:16:11
      I think on page 108 of our packet.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:16:15
      Oh, I see that off the corner.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:16:18
      Yeah.
    • 01:16:18
      I mean, it's traveling pretty far.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:16:21
      That is pretty far.
    • 01:16:23
      It's hard to imagine that that could hold the water from the other side, but there's no sign of surface-mounted gut at half rounds or anything.
    • 01:16:33
      And the porch, as you can see, is a little bit of an oddity.
    • 01:16:36
      I mean, slammed right up against those windows where it's required to remove all of the shutters.
    • 01:16:43
      That's a whole other can of worms.
    • 01:16:45
      And they really just didn't want to get into changing the porch.
    • 01:16:47
      They felt like that was more complicated, architecturally, to manipulate the porch.
    • 01:16:54
      And I assumed, I don't know if this is right, but I assumed and told them that the BAR might have more challenges approving the changing of that porch.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:17:02
      Probably a good assumption.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:17:04
      Yeah.
    • 01:17:06
      There's no chance there's a diverter up there that's kicking it out toward the corner.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:17:10
      Yeah, it could be, of course.
    • 01:17:13
      It's not a very deep porch, so it's not a ton of travel, actually.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:17:17
      Seeing where that downspout goes, it looks like it's a built-in gutter.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:17:21
      Yeah, it does.
    • 01:17:21
      Because it's coming out of the soffit.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:17:26
      Mm-hmm.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:17:27
      Mm-hmm.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:17:29
      Well, maybe that's what it is then.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:17:32
      Did anyone else have any more questions?
    • 01:17:42
      All right.
    • 01:17:43
      Any comments from our other applicants?
    • 01:17:51
      No.
    • 01:17:51
      No.
    • 01:17:52
      Okay.
    • 01:17:53
      All right.
    • 01:17:56
      Comments from the board?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:18:01
      I don't have a problem with the glass burner.
    • 01:18:03
      I mean it's a functional consideration and it's down, it's not in full view and you know it'll hold up and it won't look like hell in 10, you know, five years.
    • 01:18:15
      So I think it's fine.
    • 01:18:19
      I agree.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:18:19
      I guess my question is
    • 01:18:24
      According to the plans, they're looking at suppressing the grade to go down to achieve this doorway.
    • 01:18:33
      Why not just suppress the grade, have a few steps down, which gives you better and suppress the grade below the porch so that it gives you better head height and then you can use the fisting door and don't have to make this change to the doorway.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:18:46
      Yeah, I think that becomes complicated, not just on the exterior in terms of how to travel under that porch architecturally and how to support columns and things on the outside, but then it becomes complicated on the interior.
    • 01:19:00
      When you open that door, the stairway runs, the bottom landing is about two and a half, maybe three feet from the door face itself.
    • 01:19:11
      So it doesn't give wheelchair accessibility to enter and maneuver in the space.
    • 01:19:17
      So it feels like a really complicated path of travel.
    • 01:19:21
      From the exterior, it adds complication, and on the interior, it's complicated.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:19:24
      I mean, forgive me, but you've got steps down, right?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:19:30
      Are you talking about on the exterior or the interior?
    • 01:19:31
      Yes.
    • 01:19:32
      I have steps down on the exterior, yes.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:19:36
      Well, I guess, how does that make the difference for a wheelchair?
    • 01:19:44
      What's that?
    • 01:19:45
      I'm not trying to be crass, but if you've got steps, doesn't that make it difficult for a wheelchair user regardless?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:19:51
      Yeah, absolutely.
    • 01:19:52
      It does.
    • 01:19:53
      I mean, they're just trying to ease this path of travel as much as possible, not really knowing what they're going to get into as they move into housing.
    • 01:20:05
      It's her mother.
    • 01:20:14
      So yeah, there's steps regardless.
    • 01:20:16
      They're just trying to make it as easy as possible.
    • 01:20:23
      The maneuverability of getting under the porch, removing that existing porch base and columns and into that doors.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:20:33
      There's a lot involved.
    • 01:20:35
      I guess I wouldn't necessarily suggest that because it seems like the columns are just out at the front edge of the porch or there's supports that are back up against the wall also.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:20:45
      Yeah, and the ceiling.
    • 01:20:49
      Yeah, and the slab would have to be cut out, obviously.
    • 01:20:54
      Do you see the drop to the interior?
    • 01:20:56
      Right.
    • 01:21:00
      You'd have to excavate all of the slab.
    • 01:21:06
      Is the driveway.
    • 01:21:07
      I'm not sure how we would do that without damaging the brick.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:21:11
      But again, you're cutting out to get below grade.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:21:17
      Yeah, there's nothing totally simple about any of these solutions.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:21:27
      Is the driveway next to the house their driveway as well?
    • 01:21:30
      Dedicated driveway?
    • 01:21:31
      Yes.
    • 01:21:32
      So is that also one of your considerations is that you might be able to, the person who would be using that door could be taken by a vehicle closer to being let out?
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 01:21:44
      Yeah.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:21:54
      So James, I don't know if that's indication of a concern that you would oppose this.
    • 01:22:02
      Does anybody else have any concerns with this meeting, our guidelines?
    • 01:22:12
      If not, would anybody like to make a motion that includes staff's recommendations?
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:22:26
      I will.
    • 01:22:27
      All right.
    • 01:22:30
      All right.
    • 01:22:30
      So suggested motion approval, having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including the city design guidelines for rehabilitation, I move to find that the proposed alterations satisfy the BAR's criteria and are compatible with this property and other properties in the north downtown ADC district and that the BAR approves the application as submitted.
    • 01:22:54
      I think that we have to add something about the particular door that we would like to be there.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:22:58
      Yeah, directly above that are staff's recommendations.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:23:04
      Indeed, they are.
    • 01:23:08
      Retain and store the existing window should the opening be later restored.
    • 01:23:12
      The existing masonry opening is not altered other than below the existing window.
    • 01:23:18
      For the exterior light fixture, the lamping will have a color temperature not to exceed 3000 Kelvin, preferably dimmable and will comply with the city's dark sky ordinance.
    • 01:23:28
      Applicant will provide to staff to be our archive cutout sheets for the windows, doors and any exterior light fixtures.
    • 01:23:38
      And I believe there was still a discussion about the particular door that they would like to be there, some sort of Marvin door?
    • 01:23:43
      What would be the right way to phrase that?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:23:47
      I believe that, and Julie, correct me if I'm wrong, that you had recommended a half light aluminum clad solid wood door?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:23:55
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:23:56
      A half light aluminum clad solid wood door.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:24:01
      And we'll submit that cut sheet.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:24:03
      Good.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:24:04
      And I think we should clarify that the existing door will remain in place unlike what is shown in the documentation.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:24:17
      And the existing door will remain in place.
    • 01:24:19
      OK.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 01:24:21
      So Mr. Zehmer.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 01:24:23
      Thank you.
    • 01:24:34
      Okay, great.
    • 01:24:37
      Mr. McClure?
    • 01:24:37
      Aye.
    • 01:24:39
      Mr. Bailey?
    • 01:24:41
      Yes.
    • 01:24:42
      Mr. Lehendro?
    • 01:24:43
      Aye.
    • 01:24:44
      Mr. Gastinger?
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 01:24:45
      Aye.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 01:24:47
      Ms.
    • 01:24:48
      Lewis?
    • SPEAKER_17
    • 01:24:48
      Aye.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 01:24:49
      Mr. Moore?
    • SPEAKER_17
    • 01:24:50
      Aye.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 01:24:52
      Mr. Schwartz?
    • 01:24:53
      Yes.
    • 01:24:53
      And Ms.
    • 01:24:54
      Lingle?
    • SPEAKER_13
    • 01:24:55
      Aye.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 01:24:55
      Thank you.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 01:24:56
      Okay, that one's wrapped up and Julie, I know we got you on the next one, but we'll want to
    • 01:25:04
      Remind you also to take, you can remove the, or the, the owners can remove the, the, the BAR note that's up on the telephone pole out front.
    • 01:25:15
      Okay.
    • 01:25:17
      I'll let them know.
    • 01:25:19
      All right.
    • 01:25:19
      Yeah.
    • 01:25:19
      Sometimes those things you'd be surprised to get calls.
    • 01:25:23
      Sometimes people two years later say, Oh my gosh, I missed a meeting.
    • 01:25:28
      So roll right into four 22.
    • 01:25:29
      Is that Ari with everyone?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:25:31
      Yeah.
    • 01:25:32
      Does anybody need a break?
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 01:25:36
      Okay.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:25:37
      Just we take a break after this one.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 01:25:39
      That is a good idea.
    • 01:25:43
      This is a COA request for 422 First Street.
    • 01:25:48
      Excuse me.
    • 01:25:50
      This house was constructed between 1870 and 1885.
    • 01:25:53
      It's the Watson Bosterman House.
    • 01:25:56
      It's a three-bay, two-story frame house.
    • 01:25:59
      It is representative of similar vernacular houses built in Charlottesville in the decades following the Civil War.
    • 01:26:04
      It is a contributing structure in the north downtown ADC district.
    • 01:26:09
      This is a request for a COA for alterations to the rear of the house, including a new sunroom, a wraparound porch, and a second floor addition to the rear wing of the house.
    • 01:26:22
      This house is remarkably similar to mine, so it's sort of, although I have the two stories, but it
    • 01:26:33
      It shows up in the 1896 and the 1920 Sanborn maps, which I share with you all.
    • 01:26:38
      And the maps are a little, there's some confusion about when the rear wing was part of it.
    • 01:26:50
      And my guess in being familiar as I am with Sanborn maps is that this has been there all along.
    • 01:26:58
      Just how the Sanborn folks would refer to something, whether it was two stories or whether it was one story over a basement, things like that.
    • 01:27:05
      But the staff isn't opposed to the addition on this rear wing.
    • 01:27:15
      We just wanted to make sure that we understood any historic nature of it and how that was treated with the addition.
    • 01:27:26
      The BAUR should discuss a couple of things here.
    • 01:27:29
      One, particularly is the chimney at the rear of the addition.
    • 01:27:38
      It'll be angled over into the second floor addition in order to accommodate a window.
    • 01:27:45
      I'm not sure how exactly that would be done with masonry, but we should have discussion about that.
    • 01:27:53
      The windows and the doors, nothing was specified.
    • 01:27:58
      But Julie and I have talked about the BARs has accepted new windows or doors that are wood or aluminum clad and the applied muntins, the spacer bars, et cetera.
    • 01:28:12
      So we've talked about that.
    • 01:28:13
      We also talked about the criteria for any lighting fixtures.
    • 01:28:18
      There are some details that you all may want to discuss.
    • 01:28:23
      The railing, any sort of trim details, stairs, again, how they might relate or not to the historic character of the rear wing of the house.
    • 01:28:38
      We are supportive of this.
    • 01:28:40
      As proposed, there's just some of the questions about, again, some of the trim details and the windows that are proposed that
    • 01:28:51
      we would need some record of or some understanding of.
    • 01:28:54
      So with that, Julie, take it away.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:29:00
      Great, thank you.
    • 01:29:01
      Am I on muted again?
    • 01:29:02
      Yeah, I am.
    • 01:29:02
      OK, great.
    • 01:29:03
      Do you want to scroll down and show, or is everyone already familiar with this?
    • 01:29:06
      I was going to ask if you want to look at the 3D renderings.
    • 01:29:11
      There you go, proportional idea.
    • 01:29:12
      So it's
    • 01:29:17
      Really, the sunroom addition is not really an addition.
    • 01:29:22
      It's a re-roofing and changing the windows of the sunroom and talking about the south side addition there.
    • 01:29:31
      You all have probably seen it or noticed it in the existing conditions drawings.
    • 01:29:35
      Its roof is an extremely low slope and in fact its interior ceiling slopes with that roof.
    • 01:29:41
      And the windows are of a different quality and style than the rest of the house.
    • 01:29:45
      The windows currently in their encasements and they're deteriorating.
    • 01:29:50
      And off the rear of the house now is an exposed deck, actually partially on the south side and the east side is an exposed wood deck with a spiral stair.
    • 01:30:00
      So the goal was to improve the quality of the sunroom proportions, window type, siding type, and make that all look like a wraparound porch secondary to the primary volumes.
    • 01:30:17
      And they need additional space upstairs, which is currently two bedrooms and a bathroom.
    • 01:30:22
      And there was no way to kind of push off an addition in either the north or south.
    • 01:30:30
      directions and to the rear, we would have two separated second story spaces if we didn't go up above the existing kitchen.
    • 01:30:40
      So the owners really would like the addition to stay consistent with the existing residents in material and style.
    • 01:30:49
      The thought is that we replicate siding materials.
    • 01:30:56
      The windows would be solid wood marvin and the shutters would be solid wood and that the trim details would be slightly simpler than those on the primary
    • 01:31:05
      facade of the house and the front porch, for example, but still classic and proportionate detailing.
    • 01:31:11
      The basement level, which you can see below this, this view gives a pretty good view of it.
    • 01:31:18
      Below the deck that I just mentioned and the existing sunroom is actually wood frame or it's kind of vinyl sided right now, I think.
    • 01:31:26
      And their thought was that they would like to dress that up because it has so much visibility from the foot traffic and vehicular traffic on First Street.
    • 01:31:33
      And you really see it when you enter their house just because of how people park.
    • 01:31:37
      That's directly an eye shop that's not screened by Plantain.
    • 01:31:41
      So they would like that to look like it has a masonry base, even though it doesn't currently.
    • 01:31:46
      So that was the idea of the masonry piers that we would apply.
    • 01:31:50
      We would remove the vinyl behind them and apply to that facade to give it the look of a masonry base below each of the false columns and pilasters above.
    • 01:32:02
      The chimney transition upstairs that Jeff mentioned on the second floor, that that chimney exists internal to the kitchen.
    • 01:32:12
      And it's currently a gas fireplace.
    • 01:32:15
      So really what we're doing is moving the gas fireplace flue off to the side and then that would be a false masonry chimney to exit the roof off to the side of the window.
    • 01:32:28
      So it would be a
    • 01:32:31
      built by Old Carolina's veneer depth brick, hand pressed brick, but they make it in a one inch thick veneer brick that you can apply to maintain the visual appearance of a masonry chimney on the outside, but it's really housing the gas exit.
    • 01:32:54
      And then the other addition is that instead of the deck, they'd like to go back with porch roof wrapping around
    • 01:33:01
      that east facade and then back to the north side to connect to the existing kitchen door.
    • 01:33:05
      I think Jeff, you might've, oh no, you were probably talking about this door on the east side that was new.
    • 01:33:12
      There is an existing north side kitchen door that they wanna catch with this porch.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 01:33:18
      Right.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:33:20
      So that's a lot.
    • 01:33:24
      The roof on the porch would be standing seam metal.
    • 01:33:29
      and then the roof above on the new second story wing.
    • 01:33:35
      We'd love to make it out of slate to match the existing or a metal to match the one below.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 01:33:39
      All right.
    • 01:33:54
      Well, are there any questions from the public?
    • 01:33:59
      I don't see anything.
    • 01:34:01
      All right, questions from the board.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 01:34:07
      Tim, you're muted.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:34:12
      Julie, what's the roof on the old house right now?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:34:18
      I thought it was slate, but now I'm looking back at my photos here.
    • 01:34:21
      As that came out of my mouth, I was like, hold on.
    • 01:34:36
      Sorry, I have to have a bunch of different computers up to get onto Zoom.
    • 01:35:00
      There you go.
    • 01:35:01
      Can you see up there?
    • 01:35:02
      Yep.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:35:06
      So it is slate on the main body of the house?
    • 01:35:11
      It's a little hard to tell.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:35:12
      It's a little hard to see.
    • 01:35:14
      I think we should double confirm that.
    • 01:35:15
      That makes it look like rubber, but the valley there looks like slates.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:35:28
      Falling off or something.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:35:29
      Yeah, right, tumbling down and out.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 01:35:37
      It looks very thin on Street View.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:35:40
      Uh-huh, it does.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:35:46
      So I guess that would be a question if it's not a slate, what's it capable of holding also?
    • 01:35:52
      Whether it can hold slate, whether it's two by four rafters or not, just out of curiosity.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:35:58
      You're talking about the new second story.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:36:02
      No, I was wondering more about the old house.
    • 01:36:08
      You know, getting some differentiation between the two would probably be desirable.
    • 01:36:12
      So I can see having, and then doing all the new edition and standing same person.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:36:19
      I think they marry very nicely.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:36:21
      Yeah.
    • 01:36:22
      And it's a pretty common kind of hierarchy, right?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:36:27
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:36:30
      Is the intent to reroute the early section of the house regardless?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:36:37
      By the early section, do you mean the front half?
    • 01:36:41
      No, not unless it's necessary.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:36:44
      I guess the direct point is it asphalt shaded because it looks pretty thin.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:36:52
      Yeah, it sure does.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:36:57
      I don't know why it matters.
    • 01:36:58
      It's just not part of the application.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:37:01
      Right.
    • 01:37:02
      Jeff, now you have a fog in front of you.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:37:04
      Yeah, I know.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:37:10
      I could go either way, Tim.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:37:17
      I agree with you.
    • 01:37:19
      It's not unusual to have the addition be a metal and the front be the slate or something like slate.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:37:28
      Right.
    • 01:37:28
      Mostly I'm just saying, because if you adhere strictly to the guidelines, you're not supposed to
    • 01:37:34
      Zinni Weeb lines, extending lines, all that sort of thing.
    • 01:37:37
      So this is being handled pretty much as a direct evolution of the house.
    • 01:37:44
      So just looking for some differentiation.
    • 01:37:48
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:37:52
      Can I ask a little bit more about the fireplace in the back?
    • 01:37:55
      You said it was a gas.
    • 01:37:57
      Is that an insert?
    • 01:37:58
      It looks like it does have a current masonry chimney.
    • 01:38:06
      Or was it a masonry?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:38:07
      It was a masonry fireplace.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:38:11
      And it now has a gas insert?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:38:13
      And it has a gas insert.
    • 01:38:14
      It actually had a larger firebox on the basement level.
    • 01:38:20
      There's a, you know, old, pretty old.
    • 01:38:24
      I mean, I hate using the word original, but there's an old mantle
    • 01:38:29
      On the basement level in a big firebox, it hasn't been used.
    • 01:38:32
      I mean, it's boarded over now.
    • 01:38:35
      But on the kitchen story, the previous owners to the owners now have a gas insert set of logs that they've put in there and the owners really use them and like them and want to maintain that.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 01:38:47
      There's the houses on First Street.
    • 01:38:51
      And in fact, a lot of houses in this area, a lot of them were
    • 01:38:56
      rental tenant houses.
    • 01:38:57
      And I suspect, you know, just looking at the old photos, there's a brick base to the rear wing and maybe that was the kitchen.
    • 01:39:07
      There you go, everybody.
    • 01:39:19
      I'm visible now.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:39:22
      Oh, far better.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:39:30
      And to confirm, you had said that the proposed new chimney, you wanted to use a thin brick?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:39:38
      Yeah, if you're familiar with old Carolina, those hand-pressed bricks, they make a thin brick for applications just like this, where you can build out a exterior chimney just supported on the roof trusses.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:39:52
      I just wanted to call that out.
    • 01:39:55
      I don't think it was part of our application materials.
    • 01:40:00
      I do believe that's something that we have to grant a special exception for.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:40:05
      What I didn't want is that ugly gas flue sticking out of the roof.
    • 01:40:11
      So it's really me that's pushing for that, not the owners, but I wanted something to house that, you know, clearance that you have to make with the gas flue.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:40:24
      Are there any other questions from the BAR?
    • 01:40:33
      All right, are there any comments from the public?
    • 01:40:38
      I'm not seeing anything.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 01:40:39
      OK.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:40:43
      Any comments from the board?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:40:47
      I think it's a very rational extension of the House, and it fixes a lot of visual noise that it currently has.
    • 01:40:59
      Trying to distinguish it a little bit, and maybe just by some simple things like the roof, maybe even playing with the weatherboard a little bit, how much to the weather, I don't know.
    • 01:41:11
      Just some subtle things, but fundamentally, as far as its massing and the basic approach, I think it's fine and will be very nice addition to the house.
    • 01:41:22
      I would just like to see a little more differentiation if there's a way to achieve it,
    • 01:41:27
      following with, you know, MBS guidelines for additions.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:41:30
      Right.
    • 01:41:31
      Like change the exposure on the siding.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:41:33
      Just do some little tweaks that make it clear that it wasn't built at the exact same time as the existing house.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:41:41
      The existing siding is still wood, correct?
    • 01:41:45
      Correct.
    • 01:41:47
      Are you planning on going back with wood for the new siding or would it be fiber cement?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:41:52
      It would be wood, yeah.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:41:53
      OK.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:41:59
      I don't have a problem with the, I mean, the brick chimney coming from a manufacturer like that, it's going to weather just like a brick chimney.
    • 01:42:06
      I don't have an issue with that.
    • 01:42:07
      I mean, it's, you know, it's cheating, but it's okay to cheat in that case.
    • 01:42:13
      Right.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:42:16
      For me, the issue of the chimney is not its material so much as its location.
    • 01:42:21
      It seems like a weird, very weird spot for a masonry chimney to be coming out of a roof.
    • 01:42:27
      And for me, I'd rather just see it be a gas flue.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:42:36
      Well, actually, if it's a gas flue, you could also, let's see, you don't have room to return back.
    • 01:42:43
      You have too many angles, right?
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 01:42:46
      Right.
    • 01:42:46
      I don't know.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:42:51
      The backs of the houses tend to be quirky, so it didn't really bother me that much.
    • 01:42:56
      I mean, if it was the front of the house, or a major elevation, I'd feel differently about it.
    • 01:43:02
      I mean, I like the twin chimneys in the existing house, all that.
    • 01:43:09
      I mean, that's very nice.
    • 01:43:15
      It doesn't bother me, but I can understand why you don't like it.
    • SPEAKER_13
    • 01:43:26
      I have a comment about the spacing of the columns.
    • 01:43:30
      I understand that they are spaced so that the windows are centered, but some of them are wider, some of them are closer.
    • 01:43:38
      And I feel like since it's a historic house, they would never space the columns that way.
    • 01:43:43
      They would space them evenly.
    • 01:43:45
      and I was just wondering if you could kind of address that, why you chose to do it that way.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:43:59
      Well, I guess first of all, I'm not totally convinced that historic houses would have spaced them evenly.
    • 01:44:04
      But second of all, I just think when you're inside and outside, not having the looks dead onto a column
    • 01:44:14
      is a real advantage, I think, from a design perspective, especially because this house has a real treetops feeling to it.
    • 01:44:19
      I mean, you know that alley between First and Second Street gets quite low.
    • 01:44:24
      And so you feel like you're in the tree canopy back there a little bit.
    • 01:44:27
      And so it's going to draw your eye out a lot.
    • 01:44:29
      And I think my goal is to not impede that view with columns whenever possible.
    • 01:44:34
      So I aligned them, yeah, with the bays that we were given.
    • 01:44:38
      I mean, in a perfect world, I would have redesigned the depth of that sun porch on the south side altogether, but that was not really financially viable.
    • 01:44:49
      But it's, you know, it's got an awkward depth relative to the rest of the house, but we'd have to work within the existing foundation or that was the attempt.
    • 01:44:58
      So we're trying to kind of regularize, normalize something that's a little funky that exists.
    • 01:45:07
      Okay, thank you.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:45:10
      And then you end up with one column that doesn't have a brick pier below it.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:45:15
      Right, exactly, on the middle of that.
    • 01:45:17
      And if you added a brick pier below it, you would impede the view from that existing French door, that door behind it is existing.
    • 01:45:24
      And frankly, you can't see that right now.
    • 01:45:27
      There's no reason why you all would have ever seen this, because none of it is visible from anywhere.
    • 01:45:31
      It's literally so far below any street level.
    • 01:45:34
      I guess their neighbors on Second Street, if they're looking down, could see it.
    • 01:45:38
      But it has a final lattice wall in front of it that's built all the way up.
    • 01:45:46
      So it's sort of a, it's kind of a hot mess back there anyway.
    • 01:45:52
      But yeah, we, you could take that column out, but then you end up with a 14 and a half foot span between columns, which also looks a little awkward and unstable.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:46:07
      Well, then you, then you could Hey Ron, you're
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 01:46:15
      muted.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:46:17
      Sorry, it seems to me that, well, actually I don't mind the design as it is, but if you remove that column, it's just picking a different kind of awkwardness.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 01:46:25
      Yeah, right, right, right.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:46:27
      It actually isn't supporting anything, really.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 01:46:29
      No, no, no, right.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:46:33
      I kind of agree with Sonja that I would have expected it to be evenly spaced columns across that back, and not set up
    • 01:46:44
      actually on windows or openings within the house itself.
    • 01:46:51
      But it's not anything I'm going to follow my sword for.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 01:46:54
      I have a question for the applicant, Ms.
    • 01:47:01
      Dixon.
    • 01:47:01
      I don't see any materials submitted, and this is quite a large plan of development.
    • 01:47:08
      And I know that in response to your questions, you've said, yes, it'll be this type of brick, or yes, that will be.
    • 01:47:14
      And I guess I would ask Robert and staff, would you come back with materials next time?
    • 01:47:23
      I'm just finding a huge lack of information within which to approve this, even though I'm favorable.
    • 01:47:31
      It's much more beautiful than existing.
    • 01:47:34
      but I feel like I'm not sure that we can approve.
    • 01:47:37
      Just written data, you mean about the material selection?
    • 01:47:39
      Yeah, just about materials.
    • 01:47:41
      Sure.
    • 01:47:41
      I mean, not even to the level of cut sheets, just what type of materials.
    • 01:47:45
      Right, I can just give a written description on the problem.
    • 01:47:48
      On the two stories that are absolutely preworked.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 01:47:51
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 01:47:54
      I don't want to infer that you need to defer or that we aren't prepared to support it, but it just seems like that's a massive information that we haven't received with your submittal.
    • 01:48:04
      Yeah, and you'd want that.
    • 01:48:05
      I mean, I would just ask staff or the rest of the BAR how that's been handled.
    • 01:48:11
      Yeah, no doubt.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:48:14
      Yeah, because we can defer.
    • 01:48:17
      We can't do any more partial approvals.
    • 01:48:19
      So it's not like we can say, yes, we approve this.
    • 01:48:22
      Just bring back material samples, which I don't know how we do samples at this time period anyways.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:48:27
      It would have to be written description, do you think?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:48:29
      Yeah.
    • 01:48:33
      So everyone would have to be fully OK with this.
    • 01:48:37
      But one thing we could do is just if all the materials could be described and put into the motion, that is one method that we've done this before.
    • 01:48:48
      But if it ends up being too many materials and becomes too complicated, you may not find enough support for that motion.
    • 01:48:56
      So I don't know if you guys want to give that a try.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 01:49:04
      There's, you know, and this is often the case that, you know, and we've discussed this before that, you know, our preference is as staff to bring you what we have and have those discussions.
    • 01:49:18
      And at the very, very least, these, if nothing else, serve as a preliminary discussion.
    • 01:49:25
      And just like we have here, a lot of questions do get answered.
    • 01:49:31
      There are
    • 01:49:33
      I did feel, and as I expressed, you know, there's just some details that I think could be clarified.
    • 01:49:43
      It's, you know, there are ways to do that, but maybe the best way would be to, you could approve it with the requirement that the questions you ask be on the consent agenda for August.
    • 01:50:04
      That is a condition of approval.
    • 01:50:07
      And that knowing that the building permit could not be issued until, you know, all those conditions are met.
    • 01:50:15
      It could be deferred and you can continue to discussion next month.
    • 01:50:21
      Or you all could could opt to go through the various questions and and and seek
    • 01:50:28
      to clarify them.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:50:29
      Maybe we need to quantify what we're missing.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 01:50:36
      I can start starting on the ground floor.
    • 01:50:42
      There's a small section before the windows begin that has a small window and around the back and then they're siding on the very lower subgrade level.
    • 01:50:52
      What the plasters columns are made of what I mean, I guess we've we've gotten an answer on the brick, but it would be good to know with certainty what that brick is.
    • 01:51:02
      I'd like to know the materials on the railing.
    • 01:51:04
      I don't think that's been discussed yet.
    • 01:51:06
      Roof, I think we pretty much know it's metal.
    • 01:51:12
      And then doors and windows on both levels.
    • 01:51:17
      There are French doors.
    • 01:51:18
      There are six over six on the bottom level.
    • 01:51:22
      And I don't, I guess it's six over six on the top, but they look like they are depicted differently than the ones on the bottom.
    • 01:51:33
      Oh, and then there's a stair, a newly built stair on the back.
    • 01:51:38
      So I would just start there.
    • 01:51:44
      Did I miss anything?
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:51:46
      Any proposed lighting?
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:51:55
      Yeah, she had Julie had mentioned true wood shutters.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:52:10
      It would be good also to know what's the weather on the siding.
    • 01:52:19
      If you're going to play with some details, it would be good to know what those might be.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 01:52:23
      It's beginning to sound like it should be deferred until that list of materials is provided.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:52:37
      Now what we have done in the past is we've deferred something with a vote of confidence saying that we're generally in approval of the application, but we need to see the following items come back to us.
    • 01:52:49
      And so I've got Cheri's list.
    • 01:52:55
      The roof, have we settled?
    • 01:52:57
      Is that metal?
    • 01:52:59
      I think that was in your narrative.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 01:53:00
      Yes.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:53:01
      OK.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:53:05
      I would like to clarify where the proposed second edition roof will hit.
    • 01:53:12
      It's shown in several different relationships to the existing room in the drawings.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:53:21
      Actually, I think that's an optical illusion.
    • 01:53:23
      I took a line, and it does actually hit the ridge.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:53:27
      Yeah, I was going to say the same.
    • 01:53:29
      It's a strange thing with that chimney.
    • 01:53:31
      Interrupting that drawing makes it look like it's higher, but it's not.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:53:36
      In the rear section, A3.0, it's lower, which is fine.
    • 01:53:41
      There was one where it looked like it was higher.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:53:45
      That's true.
    • 01:53:46
      A3.0 does look that way.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:53:48
      Yeah, it does look that way.
    • 01:53:49
      But anyway, it's.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:53:52
      In A2.0, it looks higher.
    • 01:53:54
      And that was the one I was afraid of.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:53:55
      Yeah, that's the one.
    • 01:53:57
      If you draw a line, it's actually straight.
    • 01:54:00
      It aligns with it.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 01:54:01
      Oh, really?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:54:02
      You are correct about the A.3.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:54:17
      Now, it should hit below the existing.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:54:18
      Yeah, I think the 1H2.0, the two bottom, the north and south elevations show that the earth shouldn't be centered on the ridge, but then the east elevation and the north section of the earth show it off center.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:54:43
      Sorry, I was having trouble hearing that.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:54:46
      All right, just the new chimney on the back.
    • 01:54:51
      The north and south elevations show it's centered on the ridge, but the east elevation, it's opposite on A2.0.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 01:55:00
      Okay.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:55:01
      Oh.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:55:03
      It should be down in the roof more.
    • 01:55:04
      James is right.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:55:06
      Yeah, the side elevations.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:55:08
      Yeah, and I think the Brecht point, it is a- Oh, got it, yeah.
    • 01:55:13
      It's an odd chimney because
    • 01:55:18
      The way, I mean, physically, you can never quite be constructed that way if it was a true masonry chimney because you've got a window on the second floor you're trying to avoid, but then there's a window on the first floor that it would be, that it seems to be running nicely.
    • 01:55:35
      But, you know, it's just for parents.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:55:41
      So what I was pointing out was that on drawing A3.0,
    • 01:55:48
      The existing chimney on the right hand side is not drawn correctly.
    • 01:55:52
      It actually straddles that ridge like the one on the left.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 01:55:56
      Got it.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:55:58
      So you may, I don't know if your gable is, the ridge of your addition is going to hit to the side of it or just below it.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:56:06
      Right.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:56:06
      It's a little tricky.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:56:10
      Yes, it is.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 01:56:31
      I would be in favor of Carl's suggestion of a vote of confidence, along with asking to come back with a palette of materials.
    • 01:56:40
      Because I like the design, it's beautiful.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:56:45
      Thank you.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:56:50
      So, and to confirm, I just want to make sure some of these weren't covered in the narrative.
    • 01:56:58
      So the siting, we'd like to know what exposure you're proposing.
    • 01:57:01
      It looks like you have called out solid wood for the siting.
    • 01:57:06
      You have epay decking.
    • 01:57:08
      You've called for the porch post to be wrapped in solid wood with details to match elsewhere in the house.
    • 01:57:18
      I don't know if that's sufficient for everyone.
    • 01:57:23
      I think that works for me.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:57:25
      Yeah, we have a crown.
    • 01:57:27
      We have just a small beginning of an eave detail on that forge.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:57:36
      So the pile asters, I'm assuming, are also the solid wood.
    • 01:57:39
      Is that correct?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:57:40
      Right.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:57:41
      OK, so railing materials, I agree that does not appear to be covered.
    • 01:57:47
      Let me make sure.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:57:53
      Are they painted wood?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:57:55
      And simple pickets?
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 01:57:58
      Because we've been burned on that already tonight.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:58:02
      Oh, no.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 01:58:04
      Same street.
    • 01:58:06
      Oh, it is?
    • 01:58:07
      The Great Zoll House.
    • 01:58:10
      Yeah.
    • 01:58:12
      Well, there is a railing.
    • 01:58:13
      There is an existing railing and an existing porch detail on that front porch.
    • 01:58:20
      Right?
    • 01:58:21
      Yeah.
    • 01:58:23
      I'm assuming that's what you're keying off of.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:58:26
      That's right.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:58:29
      Um, so we've got the doors and windows.
    • 01:58:32
      You have said, um, oh, too many pages.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:58:37
      Um, solid with Marvin.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:58:39
      Okay.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:58:40
      Five eighths inch spacer bars.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:58:50
      Okay, so we've got the new stair, any proposed lighting, and new shutters, and the roof peak location.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 01:59:11
      And the material, I guess material on the second story edition, because we didn't determine what the material is on the main house.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:59:19
      You mean the roof?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 01:59:20
      I'm sorry, the roof.
    • 01:59:21
      Not the roof.
    • 01:59:23
      OK.
    • 01:59:24
      Not the metal, the lower, but whether it would match the original.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 01:59:33
      Yeah, my instinct is that that should be metal.
    • 01:59:42
      But if we get up there and it's an architectural shingle roof on the existing, then I think we have a whole other interesting.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 01:59:50
      So that would be a good reason to defer that portion.
    • 01:59:52
      Or how do you come back with that?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 01:59:56
      The last drawing in the submission has the matching.
    • 01:59:58
      I just would point that out.
    • 02:00:01
      It looks like an asphalt.
    • 02:00:04
      It doesn't, I can't, it's certainly not metal.
    • 02:00:07
      It doesn't, it may be slate, but it looks like they're matching.
    • 02:00:10
      So I'm just, there's lack of detail here.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:00:13
      Yeah.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:00:16
      Okay.
    • 02:00:19
      So any other loose ends that we need to add to this?
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 02:00:23
      What would the new stairs down to the garden be made out of?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:00:27
      Also, E-Pay.
    • 02:00:28
      I think that is probably in that written description.
    • 02:00:32
      Two E-Pay boards, gapped, every tread, and same railing profile.
    • 02:00:39
      Newels are in the elevation, but they're also wood.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:00:42
      Risers are painted wood?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:00:44
      Correct.
    • 02:00:50
      And all of that.
    • 02:00:51
      I mean, I don't know if species is probably not part of your domain, but.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:00:55
      I think I said we were going to price Okoye and Clear Cedar for the siding.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:01:12
      So, well that leaves for the unknowns, it looks like the proposed lighting, the new shutters, the roof peak location, and the upper roof material.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:01:22
      Right.
    • 02:01:24
      The siding and siding weather.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:01:26
      On the siding, yes, I'm sorry.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:01:29
      Profile and exposure.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:01:30
      Yep.
    • 02:01:32
      Okay.
    • 02:01:39
      Cheri, do you agree with that list?
    • 02:01:41
      I took off some of your items, I'm sorry.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 02:01:43
      No, that's fine.
    • 02:01:46
      I'll defer to the chair on this.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:01:49
      OK.
    • 02:01:49
      It just seemed like some of these seem to be answered.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 02:01:54
      Yes.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:01:54
      Buried in here.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 02:01:56
      Yeah, certainly in the summary page, yes.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:01:59
      OK.
    • 02:02:02
      So if anyone feels like it, we could do a motion for deferral with a
    • 02:02:12
      How did I word that last time?
    • 02:02:15
      Vote of confidence that generally we are content with the design, but we need to see those things come back to us.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 02:02:27
      I guess there's a question to Julie about if she is committed to bringing this back in the next month or if she needs more flexibility.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:02:37
      No, no, no.
    • 02:02:38
      I mean, I'll send you the list this week, probably.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:02:43
      Oh, that is true though, yeah.
    • 02:02:44
      If you request a deferral, you have more time if for any reason you might be.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:02:50
      Thank you.
    • 02:02:51
      No, I think that, well, when is the deadline for?
    • 02:02:53
      I didn't... Probably next week.
    • 02:02:56
      ... together very quickly.
    • 02:03:01
      Yeah, that should not be a problem.
    • 02:03:06
      Jeff, is the deadline this Thursday?
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:03:08
      No, no, no.
    • 02:03:12
      Not at all.
    • 02:03:13
      My clock math is bad, so let me just look.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 02:03:15
      I think it's a week from today.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:03:18
      Yeah, I think the 28th.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:03:20
      Great.
    • 02:03:20
      No problem.
    • 02:03:21
      So I'll get out.
    • 02:03:23
      But this is, well, yeah, yeah.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:03:28
      Right.
    • 02:03:28
      We'll work with you.
    • 02:03:29
      We'll work with you.
    • 02:03:29
      Strange times right now.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 02:03:31
      It is such strange times.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:03:34
      So move.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:03:40
      I'm going to make this motion because I think we just need to re-error here at all clearly.
    • 02:03:47
      Thank you.
    • 02:03:49
      Sorry to break precedent.
    • 02:03:53
      Having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including city design guidelines for new construction and for rehabilitations, I move to defer the
    • 02:04:06
      Yeah, I move to defer the proposed application that the BAR generally supports the application, but we would like to see the following items come back to us and be clarified.
    • 02:04:25
      The siting, exposure and profile, the proposed lighting, the new shutters,
    • 02:04:37
      the roof peak location and the upper roof material.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:04:41
      And what about color?
    • 02:04:46
      Do we... The color of the roof.
    • 02:04:49
      Color of siding roof trim.
    • 02:04:53
      I mean, maybe it's all exactly what you have there, but makes sense to at least spell it out.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:04:58
      Sure.
    • 02:04:59
      Especially with the roof.
    • 02:05:01
      I think siding and trim will match, but the roof, you know,
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:05:06
      Well, you don't know what you have for a roof.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:05:07
      Mike might not want a red roof on there.
    • 02:05:10
      Right.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:05:11
      I normally would.
    • 02:05:12
      Your voice might be all right.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:05:16
      You know, with colors, I'm allowed to okay when people are repainting.
    • 02:05:21
      And I follow the recommendations in the guidelines to generally what I tell folks is, you know, as long as it's not purple and green, if it is, then I'll take it to the BAR.
    • 02:05:33
      So, but it is so
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:05:36
      You know colors get a little odd because you know we could approve it but then could change it later with with my review but that's fine it just it just makes it comprehensive and it'd be I mean I'm sure she has this game of mine and she just said this is what I'm doing I mean if it's going to be you know
    • 02:05:56
      or as in green and, you know, hot yellow or hot red or something, maybe we'll have some problems.
    • 02:06:04
      But I don't think that's going to happen.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:06:05
      Make First Street more exciting.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:06:08
      It would, actually.
    • 02:06:09
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:06:09
      It appears that it's fogging down the BAR.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:06:15
      Just a little black light paint strip all the way around.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:06:18
      I accept Tim Moore's amendment.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:06:20
      May I offer just
    • 02:06:25
      Mr. Schwartz, just while you all were talking, I made the note of the chimney design, pilaster and column details, railing material and details, light arrangements for the door and windows.
    • 02:06:45
      Those were the things I noted that you didn't mention.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:06:50
      Which I did not mention.
    • 02:06:55
      Let's go back to what you just said.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:06:58
      Sorry, I was chasing a puppy out of the room.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:07:05
      Jeff, so I think the railing, we have confirmed that it's going to be pickets, it's going to be painted wood.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:07:16
      And similar to what's on the front of the house, presumably, in terms of the cap and the dates.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:07:21
      I was going to just include a profile in the amendment.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:07:26
      I mean, the only thing would just be, you know, just check the coordination on the drawings because there were some anomalies, right?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:07:35
      Oh yeah, I was going to do that.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:07:37
      They are the champions, so that's a little odd.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:07:39
      Right, right.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:07:45
      You mentioned doors and windows, Jeff.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:07:49
      Just the lighting arrangements.
    • 02:07:52
      Cheri had raised a question about the lightings.
    • 02:07:58
      And also was the, Breck, you know, mentioned the chimney and there was the comment made if it's offset then, you know,
    • 02:08:12
      worried about making it break.
    • 02:08:13
      I don't know if that stood was the consensus then to allow that offset and with the faux brick of some design or was a preference to.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:08:25
      And can you clarify what the question was on the windows and when you say ground level which level you're referring to because I couldn't actually follow.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:08:36
      Yeah, Cheri made the comment, and I recall, about the lights.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:08:43
      The basement level windows are all existing.
    • 02:08:45
      OK.
    • 02:08:46
      Or stay in place for the most part.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:08:49
      And then the lighting would be per the elevation.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 02:08:53
      On the south side, they're all existing?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:08:57
      The basement or first floor.
    • 02:09:00
      I think you said ground floor, which is what threw me.
    • 02:09:02
      I didn't know which one is ground.
    • 02:09:03
      Oh, yeah.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 02:09:05
      Yeah, maybe.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:09:07
      Below the sunroom I've called them.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 02:09:10
      Subgrade floor is what I was curious about.
    • 02:09:13
      Got it.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:09:13
      Got it.
    • 02:09:14
      Yes.
    • 02:09:14
      Okay.
    • 02:09:15
      So south facade windows are new.
    • 02:09:18
      Yeah.
    • 02:09:20
      On basement, below grade, I don't know, whatever it is, basement level.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:09:27
      So we want to see the light pattern for that, Jeff.
    • 02:09:31
      Is that what you're saying?
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:09:33
      Well, the question was raised and I would say that she's mentioned, you know, a Marvin with a five-eighths in button and that the light pattern would be as on the elevations.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:09:46
      Yeah.
    • 02:09:48
      Okay.
    • 02:09:48
      Yeah.
    • 02:09:49
      I mean, I guess, Julie, is there any reason that you would, windows would be different than as represented on the drawings?
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:09:58
      No.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:09:58
      Okay.
    • 02:10:03
      Sorry, just making sure I'm following.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:10:05
      Yeah, I was having trouble too.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:10:13
      Who on staff would like to read back the list?
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:10:19
      Well, you had stated you moved to deferred proposal.
    • 02:10:21
      The BAR generally supports the application, but requests information on the following.
    • 02:10:28
      You had citing, any sort of dimension changes.
    • 02:10:34
      You noted lighting details.
    • 02:10:37
      You noted shutters.
    • 02:10:38
      Because I was checking off as you went.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:10:44
      So it's the roof peak coordination, but I think that also is chimney coordination, just general drawing coordination.
    • 02:10:53
      And the upper roof material.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:10:58
      Correct roof materials.
    • 02:11:00
      And Tim had asked about
    • 02:11:04
      color the siding roof and trim.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:11:09
      I actually want to complicate this.
    • 02:11:13
      I'm not going to accept that amendment because, Jeff, you tend to deal with color, and I'm content with you dealing with color.
    • SPEAKER_02
    • 02:11:20
      OK.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:11:21
      And that doesn't mean, that means that if the color changes a month from now or two months from now, it doesn't have to come back.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:11:27
      It doesn't have to come back.
    • 02:11:27
      Yeah, I think that's true.
    • 02:11:28
      I just, all I was just thinking was, while you're on the subject, it's especially against the color.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:11:33
      When it's, you know, this were on West Main and a brand new, you know, building and, you know, funky metal panels.
    • 02:11:41
      Yeah.
    • 02:11:42
      Then, you know, but for older homes, older buildings of this nature, very flexible.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:11:51
      Oh, sorry.
    • 02:11:55
      Go ahead, Tim.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:11:56
      I was just
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:12:00
      Kidding, Jeff, you said funky metal panels.
    • 02:12:02
      What are you talking about?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:12:03
      Jody, does your second still panel?
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:12:06
      Just a hypothetical.
    • 02:12:10
      I did about a half hour ago, yeah.
    • 02:12:15
      Sorry.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:12:16
      That's all right.
    • 02:12:20
      All right.
    • 02:12:21
      I guess, so Jody, you said your second is still good?
    • 02:12:24
      Yep, it is still good.
    • 02:12:25
      All right.
    • 02:12:26
      It's alive.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 02:12:27
      OK, I'll call a roll call vote.
    • 02:12:30
      Mr. Bailey?
    • 02:12:33
      Yes.
    • 02:12:34
      Mr. McClure?
    • 02:12:36
      Yes.
    • 02:12:38
      Mr. Zehmer?
    • 02:12:39
      Yes.
    • 02:12:40
      Ms.
    • 02:12:40
      Lewis?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 02:12:41
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 02:12:42
      Mr. Gastinger?
    • 02:12:43
      Yes.
    • 02:12:44
      Mr. LeHundro?
    • 02:12:45
      Aye.
    • 02:12:46
      Ms.
    • 02:12:47
      Lengel?
    • 02:12:47
      Yes.
    • 02:12:48
      Mr. Schwartz?
    • 02:12:49
      Yes.
    • 02:12:50
      And Mr. Moore?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:12:51
      Aye.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:12:54
      Great.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:12:58
      Thank you, Julie.
    • SPEAKER_11
    • 02:12:59
      I'll get back to you.
    • 02:13:00
      Thank you.
    • 02:13:02
      Good night, everybody.
    • 02:13:03
      Good night.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:13:12
      I would like to take a break.
    • 02:13:14
      OK.
    • 02:13:14
      743, so let's come back about 748, 750.
    • 02:13:15
      Great.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 02:18:28
      Bill, if you're on the line, you're our next applicant.
    • 02:18:31
      So I'm going to go ahead and promote you to panelist.
    • 02:18:53
      Hello.
    • 02:18:56
      Oh, we can hear you.
    • 02:18:57
      We'll get started in a sec.
    • SPEAKER_19
    • 02:19:03
      What happened to Jeff this time?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:19:05
      He likes to put a post-it note on his camera.
    • 02:19:26
      He's green with envy, apparently.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 02:19:28
      Has he not found the stop audio button?
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 02:19:33
      I'll show him after.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 02:19:34
      Thank you, Robert.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 02:19:38
      How you doing, Bill?
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:19:43
      All right.
    • 02:19:44
      How are you, Tim?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:19:45
      Doing well.
    • 02:19:49
      Oh, there he is.
    • 02:19:51
      He's looking very focused.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:19:53
      Put on a shirt.
    • 02:19:58
      Even took a shower today.
    • 02:19:59
      You guys, you inspire me.
    • 02:20:02
      Come on.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 02:20:26
      So as soon as we get Angie and Jody back, we can get started.
    • 02:20:32
      James, check an eraser at your boss.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:20:45
      I'm here.
    • 02:20:46
      I was just doing a little research.
    • 02:20:49
      OK, great.
    • 02:20:50
      Sounds like we can get started.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 02:20:51
      Your video is still off, Jody.
    • SPEAKER_02
    • 02:20:57
      Thank you, James.
    • 02:20:58
      All right.
    • 02:21:02
      Well, Jeff, I guess it's 418 East Jefferson Street.
    • 02:21:06
      Yeah.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:21:15
      OK.
    • 02:21:22
      OK, this is a COA request for 418 East Jefferson Street.
    • 02:21:28
      This building was originally constructed in 1826.
    • 02:21:30
      It's a colonial revival building.
    • 02:21:33
      However, it was altered extensively in the 1920s.
    • 02:21:36
      In fact, the eastern wall facing 5th Street Northeast with its chimney and curtain and second floor double-sash windows are all that remains of the original design.
    • 02:21:49
      In fact, in the staff report, there is an old photo, presumably around the 20s.
    • 02:21:55
      You can see how significant the changes have been.
    • 02:21:59
      This is a COA request for the replacement and or repair of select windows on both the original section and the addition to the rear.
    • 02:22:11
      The applicant requests approval of either one or some combination of three options.
    • 02:22:16
      So this one will take some conversation and discussion.
    • 02:22:19
      And the work includes removal of an entry on 5th Street in filling the masonry and installing a new window at that opening.
    • 02:22:28
      There are three options I'm gonna let Bill when he talks, he can explain those better.
    • 02:22:35
      I will say last fall, I spent a good part of an afternoon over there with the contractor and looking at the windows inside and out and they are in bad shape.
    • 02:22:50
      And if one thing my past experience
    • 02:22:55
      And construction was a lot involved in windows.
    • 02:22:58
      And so I know I can speak openly and honestly that these things are, I saw substantial and significant deterioration.
    • 02:23:11
      And particularly those in the original portion there that faces the courthouse.
    • 02:23:17
      of the few existing sash at other elevations that might match those at times where we've talked about maybe rearranging sash to try to retain as many of the maybe original pieces as we can.
    • 02:23:29
      Even those that might be able to go into the primary elevation are in bad shape.
    • 02:23:36
      The submittal summarizes the proposed work at each window.
    • 02:23:38
      It provides details showing how the replacement will fit into the existing frames compared dimensionally to the existing sash.
    • 02:23:46
      The BAER should determine if the windows warrant replacement or if they should be repaired and rehabilitated or what combination.
    • 02:23:54
      If replacement is approved, the BAER should review and approve the color light configuration button with style and rail dimensions and the installation details relative to retaining and or replicating the existing, I'm sorry, and the installation details relative to retaining and or replicating
    • 02:24:13
      the existing sills and trim and Bill and I spoke briefly about that where there might be some concern about the frame condition or even some of the exterior trim condition and he can talk about that.
    • 02:24:25
      So with that, Bill, are you there?
    • 02:24:28
      Yep, I'm here.
    • 02:24:30
      Other side of the dais this time.
    • 02:24:32
      Okay.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:24:34
      Yeah, the Renaissance School wants to and the landlord want to
    • 02:24:41
      They want new windows because the old ones are in many ways failing.
    • 02:24:49
      If you flee through the presentation, you can see some photos of rot.
    • 02:24:56
      and that kind of thing.
    • 02:24:59
      There are a couple that have guillotine window status, you know, where the joints in the corners have gone so far that they're holding, just holding up a piece of glass.
    • 02:25:10
      I think there have been some replacements before.
    • 02:25:14
      In the older section of the building, there are some that are without lights.
    • 02:25:18
      You can see it on the side elevation.
    • 02:25:20
      Yeah, this is a good elevation to start with.
    • 02:25:23
      So,
    • 02:25:25
      The original 18th century building is still in brick and that's one type of detail that's what I would call a kind of colonial revival detail from the 20s and then the next small segment of building
    • 02:25:41
      You can see that that has the same detail.
    • 02:25:44
      And then moving down the street are these are actually hollow metal windows in the next segment.
    • 02:25:53
      And then here, they're just one over ones with a with a brick mold.
    • 02:25:58
      And so if we go, why don't we just go right to the to the details here.
    • 02:26:07
      So yeah, next, that's good.
    • 02:26:10
      No, go back up to the, go to the colonial detail, if you got that.
    • 02:26:17
      Yeah, there you go.
    • 02:26:19
      So, one,
    • 02:26:23
      Notion or a way of doing it would be just to recondition what's there and replace the sashes that are there.
    • 02:26:34
      And that would be according to this kind of existing detail.
    • 02:26:39
      And there are some unusual things about this.
    • 02:26:41
      And this outer casing here is also the stop for the sash.
    • 02:26:50
      and then that works well if you are considering a more modern replacement window.
    • 02:26:58
      We were looking at Marvin's, we've used Marvin windows on a number of historic projects including a couple of dorms at the University of Mary Washington and they've passed muster with DHR.
    • 02:27:14
      So the idea would be to get something that has the energy efficiency of a modern window, has the low E value, and still has an acceptable level of detail for the building.
    • 02:27:30
      And it is a kind of commercial slash institutional building.
    • 02:27:41
      the owners would really like to do the replacement windows instead of putting back the existing sashes.
    • 02:27:51
      So when we've had new sashes milled, replacement sashes, and then taken apart the existing windows to put them back together, it's always been, it's been very expensive and it's also,
    • 02:28:09
      They end up with issues like the original windows had once the sashes kind of dry out or bake out in the sun.
    • 02:28:18
      And it ends up defeating a lot of the purpose of replacing the window.
    • 02:28:27
      So I could go into
    • 02:28:31
      A lot of the conditions where these have been compromised, they've tried to put interior storm windows in a number of areas to deal with cold air infiltration.
    • 02:28:45
      At some point, somebody decided to apply silicone sealant all around the windows.
    • 02:28:51
      and I think that's caused more degradation in the windows.
    • 02:28:57
      On the backside, the west elevation, they've put plexiglass over the windows.
    • 02:29:04
      So yeah, it's just a lot of them are pretty far gone.
    • 02:29:10
      And then I guess I'd like to discuss with the sort of the nature of the elevations.
    • 02:29:16
      We feel like the elevation that's on East Jefferson Street, that's the real primary elevation.
    • 02:29:26
      And then the other elevations are, well, you don't see the one to the west very much.
    • 02:29:33
      That's back in the alley.
    • 02:29:37
      and then the one on this side elevation is a much more kind of informal elevation.
    • 02:29:44
      So the school would like to replace all the windows we have shown here with marvins, but I'm aware there may be, historic preservation is wedded to a certain attitude about window replacement.
    • 02:30:05
      and I'd like to think that the front elevation is really the primary elevation and if you do not allow replacement windows on the front, we would rehabilitate or get new sashes into the old windows.
    • 02:30:28
      So that's kind of,
    • 02:30:31
      That's kind of it.
    • 02:30:33
      The other thing to point out is where they want to fill in this door on the side.
    • 02:30:41
      That's in a stairwell.
    • 02:30:43
      That's never going to be an exit from the building.
    • 02:30:47
      So what we did was we created a detail that very much apes the detail adjacent to it.
    • 02:30:56
      So if you go down one more sheet,
    • 02:31:00
      There's this larger, taller opening, and then there's a stacked bond of infill underneath.
    • 02:31:09
      So that's what we were proposing to fill in that door.
    • 02:31:14
      So with that, I guess I'll take questions.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 02:31:26
      Are there any questions from the public?
    • 02:31:31
      I'm not seeing any.
    • 02:31:33
      OK.
    • 02:31:34
      Any questions from the board?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:31:35
      I was just going to say, so Bill, right now you think that you really only have enough window stock to legitimately reconstitute the elevations facing Court Square?
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:31:53
      Well, the existing window stock, I don't think they're going to fit.
    • 02:31:59
      I don't think you could raid one part of the building and come up with windows that fit on the front.
    • 02:32:06
      I just think there's too much irregularity in that, yeah.
    • 02:32:12
      There are a few, there are a couple windows on the Court Square elevation that are, you know, they're okay.
    • 02:32:19
      They've been painted or maybe they've been replaced at some point.
    • 02:32:24
      And there are even a couple that wear the sash weights
    • 02:32:28
      you know, still tied to ropes, but not most of them.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:32:32
      Well, also not getting as beat up as much perhaps by the weather, at least from the sun, I suppose.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:32:40
      Yeah, the ones to the west get a lot of sun.
    • 02:32:43
      Right.
    • 02:32:45
      Back in that alley, it's sunny back there.
    • 02:32:49
      And those are the ones that have really dried out.
    • 02:32:51
      And the joints are gone.
    • 02:32:54
      The mortise and tannin joints are loose up
    • 02:32:59
      at the sashes.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:33:05
      For your proposed replacement, am I right in seeing that we're just talking about a loss of 5 sixteenths of an inch all the way around?
    • 02:33:17
      Yeah, it's not much.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 02:33:24
      Hey, Bill.
    • 02:33:25
      How are you doing?
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:33:27
      Hey, James.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 02:33:29
      On the east elevation of the 1826 building on the second floor, it looks like there's two windows that definitely have later sashes.
    • 02:33:40
      They're not the six over six.
    • 02:33:42
      Are you proposing to replace those with six over six so they match that whole?
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:33:47
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 02:33:47
      Okay.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:33:48
      Yeah.
    • 02:33:49
      So that whole piece, including the next segment, that two bays or whatever you want to call it, the four windows adjacent, that's all the colonial, that colonial detail.
    • 02:34:01
      So they would all get the light, the windows with the lights.
    • 02:34:06
      Great.
    • 02:34:06
      Thank you.
    • 02:34:09
      You know, the Marvin, it's not a true divided light.
    • 02:34:15
      It's an applied light, but it has a spacer bar in it.
    • 02:34:19
      And what we've done, we've matched the width of the old putty sashes, divided lights.
    • 02:34:29
      And I think on a
    • 02:34:31
      I don't know why I think about it as a commercial building, but on a commercial building or institutional building like this, there's a lot of detail.
    • 02:34:41
      But I think the Marvin windows would provide the appropriate level of detail for the massing and for the overall effect of the building.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:34:54
      Bill, this is Jody.
    • 02:34:55
      How are you doing?
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:34:57
      Good.
    • 02:34:57
      How are you, Jody?
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:34:58
      Good, thanks.
    • 02:35:00
      Are the windows facing Courthouse Square repairable?
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:35:08
      I would say there are a few that are repairable.
    • 02:35:11
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:35:13
      But not all?
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:35:15
      Not all.
    • 02:35:15
      No, I think the sashes are shot on a few of them.
    • 02:35:19
      So I was able to take a knife and run it right into some of them.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:35:25
      So just a sash.
    • 02:35:30
      OK, thanks.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:35:36
      Yeah, Jeff subsequently asked me about the trim around the window and the sills, and there may be a few places where
    • 02:35:47
      There's rotten material and anywhere there's rotten material, it'll be replaced.
    • 02:35:53
      But for the most part, the vertical grain on the trim boards, that's all in pretty good shape.
    • 02:36:02
      It's just some of the horizontal stuff that's caught water and has some issues.
    • 02:36:08
      But the sills are all in reasonable, mostly in reasonable shape too.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:36:12
      Okay, thank you.
    • 02:36:16
      And Bill, how's the woodwork going down the center section at the front door there?
    • 02:36:20
      Is that all in decent shape or so-so?
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:36:24
      Yeah, that's okay.
    • 02:36:25
      And part of the proposal is to, you know, to paint the whole thing.
    • 02:36:29
      Right.
    • 02:36:31
      To paint all the trim.
    • 02:36:33
      And that would all be, you know, carefully done.
    • 02:36:40
      But that, yeah, that wood and that center kind of break out, that's all in pretty good shape.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:36:50
      Are the transoms and the side lights to the door original?
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:36:57
      You know, I don't think so.
    • 02:37:01
      But that's not in the scope of this proposal.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:37:04
      Right.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:37:05
      It's just going to stay as is.
    • 02:37:09
      Actually, the transom might be original.
    • 02:37:12
      Let's find a photo.
    • 02:37:14
      Actually, it doesn't appear that.
    • 02:37:17
      Jody, the front door is not original.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 02:37:19
      I was going to say, that's all probably the 1920s renovation work.
    • 02:37:27
      That is 1820s.
    • 02:37:27
      Yeah, this is 1920s.
    • 02:37:28
      This is a neoclassical revival.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:37:37
      Renaissance Revival kind of thing.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 02:37:40
      Yeah, that entire central bay, it's added.
    • 02:37:43
      It was not.
    • 02:37:44
      It bumps out as the gable roof, all of that's added.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:37:49
      Yep.
    • 02:37:51
      So we'd leave that alone and it would get painted, treated and painted.
    • 02:37:58
      And actually, Jody, I do believe that the lights on either side of the main door and the transom above, that's all
    • 02:38:07
      from 1921.
    • 02:38:08
      OK.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 02:38:08
      Any more questions?
    • 02:38:22
      Comments from the public?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:38:24
      Please raise your hand if you have a comment.
    • 02:38:26
      I don't see anything.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 02:38:28
      All right.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 02:38:30
      Comments from the board?
    • 02:38:36
      I'd just like to make a sort of a general comment.
    • 02:38:39
      I don't know if any of you got to listen to the really interesting discussion about the about Court Square, Court Square's history yesterday evening.
    • 02:38:48
      But it really strikes me that this is an architectural contributor to that rewriting of what Court Square is and was at that time.
    • 02:38:59
      It's really interesting to think about how the facades of this warehouse building were
    • 02:39:05
      were changed to tell a different story about what Charlottesville was going to be.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:39:11
      I was fascinated looking at the historic photo on 149 and seeing the cast iron Gothic entry arch
    • 02:39:34
      reminded me that the courthouse used to be a Gothic revival.
    • 02:39:42
      And I guess this arch post-dated change to putting the columns on it.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:39:55
      On the matter of, I know Bill, plug on Windows, but on the matter of old photographs, it's trying to go through Holsinger and piece together
    • 02:40:04
      you know, places around town.
    • 02:40:07
      And I've just find we we really don't have a lot of photographs of old Charlottesville.
    • 02:40:13
      So if you've got any hidden in your attic, please take copies and send them to me.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:40:21
      So that strange window on on the Fifth Street side at the corner that corresponds to, I guess, what used to be an open storefront area.
    • 02:40:34
      And that was then infilled when it was turned to law offices.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:40:39
      In fact, there's six windows on the front elevation and now it's sort of a five.
    • 02:40:45
      Yeah, it's just completely gone.
    • 02:40:49
      What was on the front, but yeah, a few remnants on the side there.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 02:41:04
      I guess just to throw this out there in terms of the narrative and description of the proposed work, I tend to lean towards option two, which is replace the windows noted.
    • 02:41:22
      It's one of the proposed approaches, so I would put my support behind number two.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 02:41:58
      I think option number one is perfectly fine.
    • 02:42:02
      I mean, it's not gonna, again, that proposal doesn't change the way that building looks in a historic way.
    • 02:42:08
      And why preserve built windows that are not even original to the 19th century, anything like that?
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:42:15
      I mean, I think- Well, because the 1920s are historic too.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 02:42:22
      No, I understand, but it is a building that,
    • 02:42:27
      You're not going to be changing the look of it now with the newer windows significantly.
    • 02:42:32
      There's no particular reason to necessarily preserve glass merely because it's that glass, is there?
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:42:39
      Yes, there is.
    • 02:42:41
      It's the historic material, that's why.
    • 02:42:44
      And just like the wood frames, the paint evidence on those frames, the way the glass is made, the materials in the glass, you replace it with something modern that looks the same, but it's not the same.
    • 02:42:57
      You've destroyed the history of it.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 02:43:04
      I think we'll just disagree.
    • 02:43:07
      Agreed.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:43:07
      I will mention something else.
    • 02:43:10
      And they have a mechanical system that would really like to have operable windows again.
    • 02:43:19
      And so that's a consideration.
    • 02:43:24
      And the newer windows would help the mechanical system in the building.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:43:35
      If you repair the historic windows to be operable, they would still be operable.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:43:40
      Yes, they would.
    • 02:43:41
      But they wouldn't have the emissivity or the U-value that a new window would have.
    • 02:43:48
      Nor would they hold the same air infiltration kind of specification that is now required by code.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:43:58
      But we're talking about one elevation, the most historic elevation.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 02:44:03
      Which is also the north elevation, so it probably doesn't get as much direct sunlight.
    • 02:44:10
      James, I can't hear you.
    • 02:44:11
      I'm sorry.
    • 02:44:13
      I've constantly had trouble with the volume on the Zoom stuff.
    • 02:44:16
      I was just saying it's the north elevation, so it presumably does not get as much direct sunlight for energy considerations and whatnot.
    • 02:44:29
      And hopefully if they're rehabbed in a thoughtful way, then they can be as energy efficient as possible, better historically than it's actually gonna be.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:44:46
      So I'm not going to lie.
    • 02:44:47
      I'm kind of with Ron on this, but I think it's also our guidelines put us in a pretty hard place with this.
    • 02:44:55
      I mean, I've wanted for six years now to try and find a way to update our guidelines.
    • 02:45:02
      But I mean, to me, a window is a functional unit.
    • 02:45:08
      It does have a lifespan.
    • 02:45:12
      And I think we need to focus on preserving windows that are
    • 02:45:15
      of a craftsmanship level or a, you know, a little more irreplaceable than a standard six over six.
    • 02:45:25
      But at the same time, yeah, I'm definitely, we have, our guidelines are, I mean, Melanie's not here to read all 10 of them to us again, but if she were, I'm sure we'd be listening, hearing all of them.
    • 02:45:35
      I could do that if you'd like me to.
    • 02:45:37
      So yeah, I don't,
    • 02:45:42
      The windows are definitely, I recognize, they're in bad shape on that north side.
    • 02:45:48
      That one down on the bottom left corner, I think I remember, was certainly very much in bad shape.
    • 02:45:55
      The ones that were not in bad shape did not appear to have wavy glass anymore.
    • 02:45:59
      I was looking from the street, so I could be wrong on that, but that does make me assume that the ones that are in better shape, some of those are replacements.
    • 02:46:13
      I would be okay at least with the west side for sure being replaced the alley side and I'm actually the fifth street side as well I'm not sure what the the one over ones I mean they aren't from 1930s they're historic but I don't know what we'd be other than the fact that they are just old
    • 02:46:42
      what would be preserving there.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:46:46
      They don't have a particularly strong relationship with sort of the arctic tonics of that part of the building.
    • 02:46:52
      That part of the building is pretty bland, but I mean, Bill, just kind of going backwards a little bit in my questions, do you have, do the second floor windows translate to the first floor windows or, you know, I'm just thinking again about
    • 02:47:10
      If you have the oldest block there, can you mix and match just at the first floor level around the corner?
    • 02:47:20
      Or you just don't have it?
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:47:22
      I just don't think they're going to be the, they may look uniform, but I just don't think they're going to be the same size or right fit.
    • 02:47:31
      Yeah.
    • 02:47:32
      I mean, when we were measuring, they were all, you know, the openings were all out half inch, you know, three quarters of an inch.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:47:41
      So I just don't think you can- I think you can see an argument for, you know, trying to have basically reconstituted windows or, you know, rehab windows at the first floor level and then going to the more modern window assembly on the top where you can't get close to it
    • 02:48:02
      You can't perceive the texture.
    • 02:48:04
      But the putty and all that kind of stuff, there's a hand to it that obviously you're not going to get with a modern window.
    • 02:48:13
      And the irony, of course, is that in the courtyard square elevation, you can't actually get close to them because of the planting beds.
    • 02:48:21
      But just saying more sort of in a philosophical sense right now, just trying to wrap my head around it.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 02:48:32
      I think just to maybe make this at least clear up something, how many people would be able to approve option one, which is basically a wholesale replacement of all the windows?
    • 02:48:45
      Ron, you were in favor of that?
    • 02:48:46
      Breck, you are?
    • 02:48:47
      I think I am.
    • 02:48:49
      Cheri is.
    • 02:48:51
      So that's four of us.
    • 02:48:52
      So unfortunately, yeah, it looks like we do need to discuss this much further.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:49:04
      I mean, I'm good with it everywhere, except I just kind of like to know that we've kind of looked at all options as far as the old block is concerned.
    • 02:49:13
      I mean, the rest of it
    • 02:49:15
      And the west side, you know, Bill's point is well taken.
    • 02:49:19
      And I can even see doing the second floor.
    • 02:49:23
      In a funny way, Fifth Street's the side where you're really up close and personal with the windows.
    • 02:49:30
      And it's almost like, you know, maybe it's those three windows and the one, and then they have to have a storm glass behind them or something.
    • 02:49:37
      I'm just thinking out loud.
    • 02:49:39
      I mean, I'm not trying to be unrealistic.
    • 02:49:43
      They are kind of a wreck.
    • 02:49:46
      What else?
    • 02:49:46
      I knew what Melanie would say.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 02:49:50
      So I guess to some degree, the proposed scope of work and the narrative and the application says one of the approaches is to preserve as much as possible on the North facade, which is the primary facade.
    • 02:50:09
      And I think that is a conservative approach that we should take.
    • 02:50:15
      from a preservation standpoint, it's as part of their application.
    • 02:50:21
      We can easily approve that as part of their application right there.
    • 02:50:25
      So it would be a different conversation if
    • 02:50:28
      The application only proposed complete replacement.
    • 02:50:31
      I think we have a more difficult conversation, but the door is open to an approach that, you know, kind of honors the call of the BAR to some degree, I would think, in preserving our architectural legacy.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 02:50:47
      I want to talk more about the cultural legacy, if we could, because I do feel strongly that this is part of Court Square's rebranding that was happening in the 20s.
    • 02:50:58
      This is the same year that the Stonewall Jackson monument was erected.
    • 02:51:04
      The courthouse was being remodeled.
    • 02:51:07
      This is part of a bigger effort within the city.
    • 02:51:10
      And I don't, in this case, I don't feel that this, I mean, I think it's, it was kind of a pretty interesting building there before, and it got totally re
    • 02:51:24
      co-opted.
    • 02:51:26
      And so I think it feels really weird to go back and try to preserve those windows that tell a totally different story about what that building was.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:51:37
      But that's an important story to tell, isn't it?
    • 02:51:41
      The change in the 20s, we may not like it, the greater cultural story that it's tied to, but it is history.
    • 02:51:53
      And it is important to preserve for future, having that story preserved and learning from it.
    • 02:52:08
      I guess that's just sort of the same argument that we're going through with the statues and
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:52:18
      Well, they're not overt symbols of anything in the same way.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 02:52:24
      No, but it was telling that this was some kind of neoclassical building there from the early 1800s or 18th century when it wasn't.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 02:52:42
      True, but the proposal is also not to put this back to what it was in the 1820s or make it a completely new building that looks nothing like it did in the 1920s.
    • 02:52:53
      You know, the windows that were supposed to be put back mimic what was put in in the 1920s.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 02:53:02
      So why not?
    • 02:53:04
      But one of the things that strikes me is that part of what you're trying to preserve is the aesthetics of the building, not necessarily every little piece of it, though I understand there are those of you who are essentialists, but what you want is the same aesthetic experience of people experiencing Court Square.
    • 02:53:22
      Changing the windows to modern windows that look essentially identical to the ones that are there will not change that aesthetic experience.
    • 02:53:29
      and it would help the people who are owning the building run it in a better, more efficient way and make it useful for the people who are living now.
    • 02:53:36
      And I think that again, people would not make a mistake in history because we changed the windows that will look essentially identical to what's currently there.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:53:52
      Can I just clarify on, you know, I mean,
    • 02:53:57
      Talking about that primary facade, I mean, I'm sort of surprised.
    • 02:54:03
      I mean, I know that you could do amazing things with epoxy and stuff like that, but I don't know how much historic material will be retained in those sash.
    • 02:54:19
      And so when we're talking about the preservation of
    • 02:54:25
      Are we talking about the preservation of material?
    • 02:54:27
      Are we talking about the preservation of an aesthetic?
    • 02:54:30
      And if so, what period?
    • 02:54:33
      Are we talking about the preservation of the dimensions?
    • 02:54:39
      So I want to, I guess only because I spent time over there, I feel like these sash are in rough shape.
    • 02:54:50
      And, you know, they may have been,
    • 02:54:53
      Abraham Lincoln's cabin sash.
    • 02:54:56
      I'd have a very, very different point of view about that right now.
    • 02:54:58
      But so I just sort of want to get at what are the goal is to rehabilitate these at all cost.
    • 02:55:07
      Go ahead.
    • 02:55:08
      You know, I'm sorry.
    • 02:55:09
      That's not the right word.
    • 02:55:10
      But all effort into rehabilitation or replacement sash that fit in the existing frame, trying to narrow down what
    • 02:55:21
      preservation objective.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:55:25
      It'd be the same on any preservation project, be it here at the university or at Jefferson's buildings or down on Court Square.
    • 02:55:34
      It would be to preserve the material that is still sound and salvageable and keep it in place and not take it apart, not destroy the fasteners, and then replace Dutchmen or epoxy
    • 02:55:51
      the material that is severely damaged and cannot be preserved.
    • 02:55:55
      And the stuff that you replace it with, it matches it in kind.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 02:56:01
      I agree, we should replace it with that which matches it in kind, which is what these new windows would do largely, if I understand it properly.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:56:13
      Well, I'm also matching the historic material that's still in good condition and we're leaving it in place.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 02:56:20
      but the point is the historic material is not in good condition.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:56:25
      I didn't hear that all the historic material is severely damaged so much that it has to be replaced.
    • 02:56:30
      I heard that there is a mixture.
    • 02:56:32
      And so I'm arguing for repairing the windows in kind and preserving the material that is still in good condition in place.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:56:46
      And on that primary elevation,
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:56:49
      and just on the primary elevation.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:56:51
      And I understand.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:56:55
      I think you'd end up with at least half of the sash replaced on the front.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:57:02
      But we'd have half of the historic preserved.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 02:57:08
      Would there be any distinction that anyone would be able to tell between the restored windows and the windows that could not be restored on that primary elevation?
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 02:57:17
      Sure.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 02:57:18
      Absolutely.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:57:22
      from the type of paint that's put on it.
    • 02:57:24
      Yeah.
    • 02:57:25
      And just texture and age.
    • 02:57:29
      The materials, the craftsmanship, the fasteners.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 02:57:35
      I guess I would point out, too, that if it were, what we would be, the discussion seems to be on that primary elevation is in lieu of these insertions of a slightly smaller sash that fits into the existing frame, that this would be
    • 02:57:53
      All effort made to retain, so for example, if a sash were too far gone, then a new sash would be constructed that would fit into that frame.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:58:09
      It'd be the exact same design detail.
    • 02:58:12
      It would fit exactly like the original.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:58:14
      Yeah, and all the time.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:58:26
      I mean, the big irony about all this discussion to me is that, you know, like the discussion about being Gothic originally is that now that we have ADC districts and things like that, you don't see, you know, the fashion of the time doesn't rewrite all the buildings or half the buildings, you know, the way, you know, federal style houses turned into Queen Anne houses and that sort of thing.
    • 02:58:49
      It's kind of interesting that that sort of behavior
    • 02:58:54
      doesn't work within the MPS guidelines or our guidelines, just an aside.
    • 02:58:59
      It sort of freezes some things in time.
    • 02:59:03
      And I don't think those stash replacements part of that discussion, because we're really talking about this, like this got changed wholesale into a federal revival building, right?
    • 02:59:15
      Classic revival building.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:59:16
      Classic revival building.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:59:17
      And that wouldn't, classic revival, that just wouldn't happen today, right?
    • 02:59:20
      In an historic property.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:59:22
      Yeah, no.
    • 02:59:23
      With a historic district, you kind of take it out of time.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:59:26
      Right, right.
    • 02:59:26
      And suddenly you just froze it.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 02:59:31
      Which is unnatural.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 02:59:32
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 02:59:34
      It has a kind of attempted... That's our charge per our guidelines, whether we like it or not.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 02:59:42
      Right.
    • 02:59:44
      The front, if I may, the front part of the building is interesting in that it has a kind of theatrical or kind of Potemkin quality.
    • 02:59:55
      It was particularly, you know, it was made to be like a piece set of some kind, you know, to help set up Court Square.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 03:00:07
      So it was designed to give it a
    • 03:00:11
      Dignity that wasn't there was a mercantile building because it is for lawyers.
    • 03:00:18
      And so, yeah, it was a stage set.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 03:00:21
      Yeah, so it's a little bit of Disney.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:00:26
      Williamsburg, if you prefer.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 03:00:30
      Yeah, part of the renovation of Court Square was, there was a lawyer's building that they called it that they
    • 03:00:38
      They tore down.
    • 03:00:40
      So this, I guess, been where the lawyers relocated to.
    • 03:00:46
      But in regards, again, to getting to what, you know, to help answer Bill's question here.
    • 03:00:54
      I mean, if I were, if I understand and I understand, I mean, I appreciate the way Jody is saying is that, you know, on this primary elevation, that a
    • 03:01:09
      A sash by sash evaluation is made.
    • 03:01:12
      To the extent that an existing sash can be repaired and retained, it should be.
    • 03:01:19
      And to the extent that an existing sash is, you know, simply not viable, then a replacement sash is fabricated to replicate the one that's being removed and it is
    • 03:01:38
      installed into the existing frame using existing pulleys and weights.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 03:01:46
      Let's summarize in proposal proposed work approach number two.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:01:57
      For that section, yeah.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 03:01:59
      Correct.
    • 03:02:00
      So Carl, could you take a straw, I mean, Mr. Chair, I'm sorry, a straw vote for number two?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:02:08
      Tim, have you changed your mind?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:02:11
      I would like to see the primary facade preserved, if at all possible.
    • SPEAKER_02
    • 03:02:18
      All right, then that's the whole rest of it.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:02:21
      Bill, I think the selection, the way it works with that integral sash, slash casing,
    • 03:02:27
      The way it buries the replacement sash, that works great.
    • 03:02:30
      I have no problem with it.
    • 03:02:32
      And the one over ones, I couldn't care less.
    • 03:02:38
      And the west side, absolutely.
    • 03:02:40
      And also, when I say front main facade, I'm not including the carbuncle to the right.
    • 03:02:47
      I'm just talking about the box of the.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:02:50
      You need a new architectural term.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:02:52
      Oh, I like carbuncle.
    • 03:02:54
      Bill likes carbuncle.
    • 03:02:58
      I don't think that one matters.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:03:01
      Okay so and what about the windows on 5th Street that are part of the 1920s renovation?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:03:13
      I think it would be a major concession to ask them to do this front facade so I wouldn't ask them to do the 5th Street facade.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:03:22
      I guess by a show of hands is that passable for everybody?
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 03:03:29
      All right.
    • 03:03:32
      I'm not sure what I'm voting for.
    • 03:03:33
      I'm supportive of going as far as they want with the windows.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 03:03:37
      Yeah.
    • 03:03:37
      So wait, ask your question again, Mr. Chair.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:03:41
      So the motion that I believe is going to come up is going to be... We're going to make a motion.
    • 03:03:50
      Actually, yeah, somebody go ahead and make a motion.
    • SPEAKER_15
    • 03:03:56
      Do you want to do it?
    • 03:03:59
      I'm trying to find it.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:04:00
      Or James might do it.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 03:04:02
      Who gets it first?
    • 03:04:04
      Yeah, who finds it first?
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 03:04:07
      I found it.
    • 03:04:11
      Having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including city design guidelines for rehabilitation, I move to find the proposed
    • 03:04:21
      Approach number two, the window repairs and replacements satisfy the DAR's criteria and is compatible with this property and other properties in the North Downtown ABC districts.
    • 03:04:32
      So if the DAR approves the application as submitted.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 03:04:36
      Second.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:04:38
      Can we clarify that?
    • 03:04:40
      Are we talking about both west and east locations?
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 03:04:43
      So here, let me read it as it's written.
    • 03:04:49
      I'm just going to start over.
    • 03:04:50
      Having considered the standards set forth for the city code, including city design guidelines for rehabilitation, I moved to find that the proposed option to replace windows noted on the east and west elevations only with Marvin ultimate double hung insert D2 windows, rehabilitate and or replace sash boards, et cetera, on the north square elevation.
    • 03:05:14
      which is the primary elevation.
    • 03:05:16
      The west elevation faces the alley, the east elevation faces the street northeast.
    • 03:05:22
      Satisfied the bar's criteria and is compatible with this property and other properties in the north downtown ADC district and that the BAR approve the application as submitted.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:05:34
      Second.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:05:36
      Just to clarify, I apologize.
    • 03:05:38
      Tim, you had suggested that the bay that is furthest west on the north elevation
    • 03:05:44
      Could also be replaced, is that correct?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:05:47
      That's what I was suggesting, yes.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 03:05:50
      I would disagree with that.
    • 03:05:51
      I'm sorry, Tim.
    • 03:05:54
      Again, that's part of that history facing Court Square and the difference between the one side and the other is very important to preserve.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:06:07
      I would note that the apertures on the 1920s edition on the 5th Street side do match up with the original.
    • 03:06:16
      I'm not saying the 1820s, but there is a continuation of the apertures on both of the first and the second story.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 03:06:23
      Yeah, if you look at that historic photo,
    • 03:06:30
      There did look like maybe that one or two of those windows dated to the earlier period of the 1820s.
    • 03:06:38
      Now whether the sash and whatnot that are there, those presumably date to the 1920s.
    • 03:06:43
      So I guess, Cheri, are you suggesting we maybe need to extend this to the depth of the 1820s building along Fifth Street?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:06:55
      I didn't, I couldn't, what do you say?
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 03:06:59
      Yeah, I guess, are you suggesting that we support this approach on Fifth Street for the depth of the 1820s?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:07:11
      Yeah, I don't think it's 1820, but the addition that is definitely behind, yeah.
    • 03:07:17
      And you can see the sequencing of the apertures, you know, the additional two windows, the size of them.
    • 03:07:23
      I mean, there's a rhythm there that is interrupted with the later additions.
    • 03:07:27
      in the 30s.
    • 03:07:28
      So yeah, I would, if there is support for that, I would make a friendly amendment to add that 1920s edition on the 5th Street side, those four windows to the treatment.
    • 03:07:44
      That's not what I was.
    • 03:07:45
      Yeah, that's the North and West side.
    • 03:07:47
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 03:07:50
      I was mostly focused on the original building block.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:07:54
      I like the original building.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 03:07:58
      I think you're talking about the same thing.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:07:59
      You know what, Robert, can you share the screen or something and let Cheri go to the oblique view of page 151, I guess it is.
    • 03:08:14
      Cheri could circle what she's referring to just to make sure we're all moving on the same page.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:08:19
      Let me see if I can get to this right page 151.
    • 03:08:25
      Yeah, that's the best view, the figure four oblique view.
    • 03:08:30
      I mean, there is a sequencing, I would say, with the windows that are further to the south on the original building.
    • 03:08:43
      Those two most southern windows on both stories, sort of the sequencing size, rhythm of them is continued into the 1920s edition.
    • 03:08:54
      Am I seeing this incorrectly?
    • 03:08:57
      There's definitely a unity to the original 1800s building in the 1920s edition.
    • 03:09:04
      I think as far as the aperture is concerned.
    • 03:09:10
      No?
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 03:09:11
      Agreed.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:09:12
      OK, thank you.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:09:15
      So not to confuse life, but what I was referring to was just strictly the North facade and that
    • 03:09:24
      In addition to the right of the original block with the double windows, I was thinking that didn't qualify, but Jody was saying that did qualify, correct Jody?
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 03:09:31
      Correct.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:09:33
      And then, but I guess it's another ball of wax if we start going down the east side of the building, even though I understand what you're saying Cheri.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 03:09:43
      Yeah.
    • 03:09:44
      The apertures on that east side of the building actually do seem to be different sizes.
    • 03:09:49
      They're not the same sizes at all.
    • 03:09:52
      Right, the last four are definitely- The last four, yeah, exactly.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 03:09:56
      And if you look, if you go back to that black and white historic photo, you'll see that a couple of those, there you go, see some of those are earlier, and then I think maybe there's even a pair added in, or do we think that was, it's up to tell exactly where.
    • 03:10:19
      Personally, I'm happy to be
    • 03:10:23
      Where we are with the motion that we're preserving the north facade, if that's okay with everybody else.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 03:10:31
      If we want to start really, I think it sounds like option two is a good compromise.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 03:10:38
      I agree.
    • 03:10:39
      I agree.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:10:39
      I'll withdraw my friendly amendment.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 03:10:43
      Does that feel friendly to you, Bill?
    • 03:10:49
      I'm just trying to get out of here with the scope of work.
    • 03:10:54
      But the proposal for number two respected the formal properties of each elevation, if you will, because the court square one is highly symmetrical and formalized thing.
    • 03:11:11
      And that would be the logical piece to retain.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:11:15
      Right, because it's the most architecturally intentional facade in the entire building by a long shot.
    • SPEAKER_18
    • 03:11:25
      So there's a motion on the table, I believe it got seconded, did it?
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 03:11:29
      Yes, I did.
    • 03:11:32
      Oh no, Cheri did, Cheri seconded it.
    • 03:11:35
      She beat me to it.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:11:38
      Okay, I will call a roll call vote then.
    • 03:11:41
      Mr. Bailey?
    • 03:11:43
      Reluctantly, yes.
    • 03:11:46
      Ms.
    • 03:11:46
      Lewis?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:11:47
      Aye.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:11:48
      Mr. Zehmer?
    • 03:11:50
      Aye.
    • 03:11:51
      Ms.
    • 03:11:51
      Langel?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:11:52
      Aye.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:11:53
      Mr. Schwartz?
    • 03:11:54
      Yes.
    • 03:11:55
      Mr. Gastinger, Mr. Moore, Mr. McClure, and Mr. Leandro.
    • 03:12:06
      All right.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 03:12:09
      Thank you all.
    • SPEAKER_15
    • 03:12:11
      Thank you, Bill.
    • 03:12:13
      Windows.
    • 03:12:14
      Always the worst.
    • SPEAKER_07
    • 03:12:19
      All right.
    • 03:12:20
      Thank you much.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:12:21
      Thanks, Bill.
    • 03:12:23
      Thank you.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:12:28
      All right, are we ready for 506 Park Street?
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:12:30
      Can't wait.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:12:34
      I think so.
    • 03:12:35
      So I know that we have a number of people online for this application, so just bear with me while I promote you to panelist.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 03:12:45
      Yeah, I saw, you know, Brett, you circulated, thank you, some information about Court Square.
    • 03:12:50
      You know, there's a lot of fuzziness about what happened with McKee Block.
    • 03:12:55
      I've actually done a lot of looking at the
    • 03:12:59
      the census and who lived there and what the mix was and how many people were there was rather interesting.
    • 03:13:05
      It was kind of a mixed little block of homes.
    • 03:13:08
      But I had seen that same citation you had and John West, you know, the guy that owned a lot of Charlottesville, he owned McKee Block and sold it to McIntyre, who then gave it to the city.
    • 03:13:23
      So there's all this sort of fuzziness about the
    • 03:13:28
      the acquisition of it and who did what first.
    • 03:13:32
      But I don't know, when I read that the other day about the Board of Supervisors condemned the land or whatever, that hasn't played out at least in what I've seen.
    • 03:13:42
      So it's the same thing going on.
    • 03:13:45
      There's a parcel of land over by Dairy Central that has a John West plaque on it and people have come to speak of it as, well, that's where John West's house was and he never,
    • 03:13:58
      He lived on West Main Street up near where sort of near Inches Grocery in that area.
    • 03:14:06
      He never lived anywhere else.
    • 03:14:07
      So there's things that start to become factual and it's like, oh, well, no.
    • 03:14:13
      All right.
    • 03:14:15
      Let's jump forward.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:14:17
      I don't remember if I promoted Bruce Swardell to, oh, no, there you are, Bruce.
    • 03:14:24
      Yeah, OK, great.
    • 03:14:25
      I see an additional attendee.
    • 03:14:28
      I don't know if it's Kareem, but it's just a phone number, so I'm not sure who it is.
    • 03:14:32
      So I'm not promoting them yet.
    • 03:14:34
      But if they need me to, I can.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:14:36
      I think we wanted to make sure that Terry Forbes was promoted and looks like he has been.
    • 03:14:42
      And Isaac Miller is here as well.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:14:46
      OK.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:14:50
      I'm not sure, I'm not aware that Hermine was here.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:14:55
      OK, I think we can go ahead and get started.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 03:14:58
      Good, good.
    • 03:15:02
      It's just I heard Bruce's voice, but I couldn't find him in my Brady Bunch squares.
    • 03:15:06
      And so my apologies.
    • 03:15:10
      All right, this is 506 Park Street.
    • 03:15:12
      It's a COA request for addition and some alterations to the church.
    • 03:15:19
      First Press was constructed in 1954.
    • 03:15:21
      The Fellowship Hall to the rear was added in 1986.
    • 03:15:27
      The church has designed a colonial revival style based on James Gibbs' 1722 St.
    • 03:15:32
      Martin in the Field in London.
    • 03:15:33
      It is a contributing structure in the North downtown ADC district.
    • 03:15:38
      It's a request for a COA for a three-story addition to the Fellowship Hall for alterations at the Gathering Hall, which is towards the Park Street side.
    • 03:15:49
      and those alterations replace floor arch windows with French doors, construct a new terrace with some associated landscaping and finally there's alterations to the gathering hall which is an internal courtyard and terrace.
    • 03:16:03
      There's a lot to this and just to jump on some of the, I think primarily staff
    • 03:16:16
      I didn't have any really issues with it as far as our recommendations.
    • 03:16:19
      I know there's been a lot of discussions about trees, particularly the one large tree on the Park Street side and the other where near the addition is.
    • 03:16:29
      I did make one note.
    • 03:16:32
      There's some artificial turf proposed.
    • 03:16:34
      It's rather unprecedented within an ADC district.
    • 03:16:37
      However, this is an enclosed courtyard, and it's surrounded by structures and not visible from the public right away.
    • 03:16:43
      And we didn't see that as an issue.
    • 03:16:46
      Proposed trees and shrubs are consistent with the city's tree list.
    • 03:16:50
      Paving materials conform with the design guidelines.
    • 03:16:52
      And I'll leave it at that.
    • 03:16:54
      I know there's going to be a lot to discuss.
    • 03:16:56
      So, Bruce, your show.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:16:58
      Yeah, Jeff, if you can go back to, I think it's page five, maybe.
    • 03:17:06
      I'm doing it without my hands.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 03:17:08
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:17:09
      Oh, okay.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 03:17:10
      Thank you, Robert.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:17:11
      Robert's got too far.
    • 03:17:19
      That's page two, page three, page four and page five.
    • 03:17:23
      There you go.
    • 03:17:25
      It's the aerial view.
    • 03:17:26
      One back.
    • 03:17:33
      So very quickly, there is a good amount to this application.
    • 03:17:39
      It basically breaks itself down into two major components.
    • 03:17:44
      And the background to this is that the administrative offices have been on the Park Street level
    • 03:17:57
      in that little wing between the sanctuary and the chapel, the chapel on the south side, the 1954 sanctuary on the north side, and that little connector in there has been the administrative offices.
    • 03:18:12
      The church has, over the years, have developed this parking lot down on the northeast side, on the exact opposite side of the property from where the administrative offices are.
    • 03:18:27
      And so it became very difficult and very convoluted to get people from that parking lot to the administrative offices.
    • 03:18:39
      In addition, they have a need for additional classrooms and also have had the need for a place to meet and gather before and after services because the fellowship hall is on the south
    • 03:18:58
      east side and the sanctuary is on the northwest side of the property.
    • 03:19:03
      And so the fellowship hall was again remote from the sanctuary.
    • 03:19:07
      So this proposal on the interior creates a new gathering hall in the place where the administrative offices were and
    • 03:19:17
      The impact on the district basically is confined on this side to developing an outside bluestone gathering terrace for before and after services.
    • 03:19:33
      and then there are a series of round top windows, double hung windows that exist along that western facade and the proposal is to take four of the central ones and turn them into
    • 03:19:53
      French doors that would connect the new gathering hall to the exterior terrace.
    • 03:20:05
      Yeah, right, okay, there.
    • 03:20:10
      And so that's basically the impact of the addition of the work on this side with some new landscaping.
    • 03:20:20
      There are details further along in this presentation of the actual configuration of those French doors, those four openings.
    • 03:20:32
      One, two, three, four.
    • 03:20:34
      Yeah, four openings in the center.
    • 03:20:37
      The proposal currently is for changing out the doors, not the round top windows.
    • 03:20:45
      But the doors would match the configuration of the divided lights and the configuration of the
    • 03:20:57
      Central Mullion and that kind of thing.
    • 03:20:59
      And if you've looked through the package back in the architectural drawings, there are details of what that elevation would be like.
    • 03:21:09
      The second part of this is a three-story addition on the northeast side that will become, if we go back to that, yeah, okay, let's go further along.
    • 03:21:21
      We can keep going down, I guess.
    • 03:21:26
      There you can see the three-story edition.
    • 03:21:31
      This is from the 7th Street elevation.
    • 03:21:39
      It contains new administrative offices on the ground floor, the 7th Street floor.
    • 03:21:45
      It contains a large teaching room on the middle floor and contains new junior and senior classrooms on the top floor.
    • 03:21:56
      It's separated from the 1984 edition on the left side with that new kind of windowed hyphen.
    • 03:22:07
      And then if we go on to the next couple of slides,
    • 03:22:13
      There you can actually see, we took all of the landscape and everything away on this drawing so that you can actually see the configuration of the new addition architecturally in relationship to the north facade of the church with again the hyphen between the existing construction and the new construction.
    • 03:22:35
      The bricks, the brick pattern will match.
    • 03:22:37
      I think we've provided samples of that.
    • 03:22:40
      It's a Flemish bond.
    • 03:22:43
      The profiles of trim and cornice work will be consistent with the existing precedents on the existing building.
    • 03:22:57
      Let's go back to that very first aerial view if we can, because what I want to do is I want to describe
    • 03:23:05
      a little bit of how the configuration of this Northeast three-story addition occurred.
    • 03:23:12
      And that is that through a series of studies of how we could add to this building, there really was only one location.
    • 03:23:22
      And that location was filling in this kind of empty corner of the race from
    • 03:23:31
      lack of a better term, the racetrack, connecting the fourth corner of the courtyard.
    • 03:23:39
      And because we needed connection up to the Park Street level, we needed entry from the parking on the northeast side, and we needed to connect it back into the Fellowship Hall as well, which is on the southeast side.
    • 03:23:58
      and the size of the program required a footprint of this size.
    • 03:24:05
      Given that this was the only logical location for the addition, it then essentially logically required that the entry to this addition happen on the north side of this
    • 03:24:23
      of this new addition.
    • 03:24:25
      It couldn't happen on the 7th Street side because then you would be getting crowds of people coming from the parking lots and having that tight clearance along the sidewalk.
    • 03:24:36
      And on the north side, it also allowed us to address what has been a very awkward and very close to dangerous connection between the upper parking lot and the 7th Street elevation, which is a big circle around an existing ash tree.
    • 03:24:58
      And in creating this entry on the north side,
    • 03:25:07
      and then having to connect the new addition to the existing floor levels within the footprint of the building.
    • 03:25:17
      The grading of the site to that north side basically indicated that the root system and the conditions around that one large ash tree
    • 03:25:34
      would be very difficult for that tree to survive.
    • 03:25:39
      And so we recommended to the church that that tree be removed.
    • 03:25:46
      And that's been the subject of a conversation that's come up recently with a representative of the board.
    • 03:25:56
      I'm happy to talk about more details of that tree if need be, but
    • 03:26:02
      The decision was basically a technical one associated with the actual construction of that addition and the necessity of that addition being where it is.
    • 03:26:15
      So that's basically the layout.
    • 03:26:19
      I'm happy to talk about the variety of details, the plant materials, the terracing, the windows, if you're not too tired of windows yet, and whatever other issues you want to address.
    • 03:26:36
      And I think Terry Forbes is here in case you want a representative directly of the congregation.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:26:48
      All right, well, Robert, do we have any public?
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:26:54
      No, I don't think so.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:26:57
      OK.
    • 03:26:58
      Well, then I guess we can start with questions, but this just goes right into comments.
    • 03:27:02
      It's fine.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 03:27:06
      Do you have the one call in person that hasn't been identified?
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:27:12
      I have a Corey on my grid.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:27:17
      Patrick Corey?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:27:21
      He's taking our minutes.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:27:23
      Ah, okay.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:27:24
      Yeah.
    • 03:27:28
      I don't know.
    • 03:27:28
      The number is not identified, so I don't want to unmute them if they're not prepared to speak.
    • 03:27:34
      Does the public have any questions?
    • 03:27:38
      Yeah, if there's any way, if you are a public commenter, you can email me or message me, I can unmute you.
    • 03:27:45
      But otherwise, I don't want to put you in that position.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:27:52
      Supposedly, there's a star, some number to unmute yourself when you're on one of these, but I don't remember what that was.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:28:01
      Okay, and if you need to contact me, my email is wodkinsro at Charlottesville dot gov.
    • 03:28:08
      So yeah, feel free to reach out to me.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 03:28:14
      All right, questions from the board.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 03:28:22
      Bruce, could you
    • 03:28:23
      To clarify, in the survey it identifies the tree to be removed on the southwest side of the project as deciduous, but is it in fact a magnolia?
    • 03:28:38
      It is a magnolia, yes.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:28:49
      A lot of this makes sense.
    • 03:28:51
      to me and I understand the logic of turning that into the, you know, the gallery in place between the sanctuary and the chapel makes an enormous amount of sense.
    • 03:29:05
      It does seem like, you know, some larger trees would be great, but I have a sort of more architectural question and just kind of curious really about your take on it.
    • 03:29:15
      If I look at that, I believe it's the north elevation from the parking lot,
    • 03:29:20
      With the new addition to the left, I'm looking, for instance, at page 16, or maybe even better yet, what's the perspective, I mean, the elevation on page 27.
    • 03:29:35
      I was wondering if it makes sense to, you know, where you have that bump out for the new three-story addition.
    • 03:29:46
      Would it make sense for that to be, that bump out to be a gable rather than a hip?
    • 03:29:50
      And the only reason I ask that is it just seems, it sort of feels like it's not, having some degree of punctuation there might kind of help the scale a little bit.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:30:02
      Yeah, it's interesting.
    • 03:30:04
      We did have an earlier version that was a gable.
    • 03:30:06
      I figured you might have.
    • 03:30:10
      And
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:30:13
      You know, it wasn't a slam dunk to take it away.
    • 03:30:18
      I think what happened was that on this north side, when you began to get a gable there, it began to compete a little bit with the primacy of the sanctuary and that facade.
    • 03:30:33
      And it also, when we're entering in the hyphen,
    • 03:30:43
      The Gable began to communicate a kind of competing message about how you were getting in the building.
    • 03:30:53
      And then lastly, I think from the ground level, we wanted to emphasize the continuity of that cornice that's over the, we call it the, it's the music edition, the choir room edition.
    • 03:31:09
      Coming off the end of the sanctuary?
    • 03:31:11
      Yeah, and we wanted to emphasize the consistency of that cornice coming across on both sides of the hyphen.
    • 03:31:20
      So that was the reasoning behind taking the gable away.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:31:26
      And I'm sure you did this too.
    • 03:31:28
      What if it was the inverse where you had a gable running to pick that up so the hyphen red is a slot all the way through.
    • 03:31:37
      That didn't work either.
    • 03:31:38
      In other words, gable running parallel on the same axis
    • 03:31:48
      as the sanctuary.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:31:52
      Well, let's go look at the seventh street elevation.
    • 03:31:54
      If we can go back, I think it's back one or two slides right there.
    • 03:32:00
      So that gets to be pretty tall if you do that.
    • 03:32:03
      Yeah, that was the issue there.
    • 03:32:07
      That's actually the reason why we continued the cornice line in the frieze that goes along below the attic story.
    • 03:32:17
      Continue that two-story line on the residential side of the building.
    • 03:32:22
      And again, hit that roof back so that we were minimizing the kind of volume of that.
    • 03:32:28
      We were a little nervous of making that a gable on that side and reinforcing the three-story height on the residential street.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:32:43
      Understood.
    • 03:32:43
      I mean, that actually
    • 03:32:47
      I can see that one kind of resolved.
    • 03:32:49
      That one doesn't feel quite so, what's the word I'm looking for here?
    • 03:32:54
      That feels resolved.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:32:55
      Just the other side just feels a little, I don't know, just We had the gable on the north side for, we had the gable on the north side for probably six months.
    • 03:33:13
      and then took it away sort of late in the design process.
    • 03:33:23
      And if we could go to one of the renderings of that lower entry terrace there, that's really where you can see what its presence is like.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:33:37
      Right.
    • 03:33:38
      And then just being a devil's advocate, what about a flat roof?
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:33:44
      I'm just curious.
    • 03:33:49
      You could make a little flat roof bay out of that and let the main hip just be the main hip.
    • 03:34:03
      From the ground, I think it's six of one half dozen of the other.
    • 03:34:06
      Yeah, it is because you don't see it.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:34:10
      The main building just has such sort of pure reforms.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:34:13
      It does, and what we're doing here is, if you noticed on the overall plan or footprint of the building, at the southwest corner where the chapel is, you have a chapel that kind of mediates that corner.
    • 03:34:34
      This is the only place where we're kind of just turning the corner without a kind of event happening.
    • 03:34:42
      And you can see that at the other end of the fellowship hall, it has a hip roof on it.
    • 03:34:51
      So that was a little bit of the way we were thinking, that the gables were kind of up on the Park Street side of the building and the hips were on the 7th Street side.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 03:35:05
      I actually think that works very well.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:35:10
      I agree.
    • 03:35:10
      I know we're going to have some comments on the landscape, but as far as the architecture, does anybody see anything that they think is competing with our guidelines in any way?
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 03:35:21
      I think it's very appropriate.
    • SPEAKER_16
    • 03:35:28
      I agree.
    • 03:35:29
      I think it's well conceived and blends in nicely with the existing building.
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 03:35:35
      I agree.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:35:35
      I agree.
    • 03:35:38
      I think this works well.
    • 03:35:41
      The windows, you know, I know we talk about windows.
    • 03:35:44
      They're far back in the street.
    • 03:35:45
      It's not on the main sanctuary.
    • 03:35:47
      I think that's a perfectly fine place to change them out.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:35:53
      We try very hard to play second fiddle in these kinds of buildings.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:36:04
      Well, if no one has any more comments on the architecture, maybe I know we want to talk about a tree, it sounds like.
    • 03:36:15
      Breck or Jerry?
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 03:36:16
      Well, I'd just like to maybe talk about trees generally first.
    • 03:36:22
      I actually feel like the landscape plan, as conceived, really makes a lot of sense.
    • 03:36:29
      And I don't have
    • 03:36:33
      an issue with the proposal.
    • 03:36:36
      I do want to say that this project is taking out at least seven, some of which are pretty considerable trees.
    • 03:36:44
      And this is one of the things that this property contributes to the neighborhood.
    • 03:36:50
      And in general, the trees that are going in instead are smaller in stature.
    • 03:36:57
      There are some,
    • 03:37:00
      We have two poplars that are proposed, but they're in a planting that is relatively tightly spaced.
    • 03:37:10
      So they won't get to the same kind of level of stature as the trees that they're replacing.
    • 03:37:20
      So I think there's probably other possibilities for replacing the kind of canopy presence, at least over time, within the property, but I'd just throw that out.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:37:39
      So I had a question just to kind of clarify what we're looking at because it looks like for all the smaller plantings you have quantities with them and for the trees I'm not seeing quantities but at the northeast corner around your new entry terrace, am I right in seeing two red maples and eight London Plains?
    • 03:38:01
      Is that the extent of the shade trees?
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:38:04
      I think that's right, yes.
    • 03:38:08
      It might be 10 London planes.
    • 03:38:10
      Let me double check.
    • 03:38:13
      It's eight London planes and two Maples.
    • 03:38:16
      All right.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:38:27
      I mean, a London plane can certainly get big.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 03:38:29
      It can.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 03:38:40
      They can get really big, but they are placed pretty tightly here, which will be more architectural, less specimen tree form over time.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:38:52
      I think the intention, I mean, this space on the northeast side is going to be, I mean, the number of people that come in and out of the building from this side, both on weekdays,
    • 03:39:05
      for the preschool and for the church services on Sunday.
    • 03:39:09
      This is where the majority of people are coming from.
    • 03:39:12
      And so the space sequence, the sequence of places along that path coming into the building are going to need to accommodate more people.
    • 03:39:21
      And right now it's nothing but a very steeply and awkwardly sloping circular driveway.
    • 03:39:30
      And so the idea was to make a room
    • 03:39:36
      that you could come to before you came into the building.
    • 03:39:39
      And so that implied that the landscaping would be the edge of the space instead of the middle of the space.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:39:48
      It also would obviously mediate that whole question I had with you about that one volume relative to the end of the building, obviously.
    • 03:39:56
      Right, yeah.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:40:03
      Yeah, I mean, I recognize that the proposal does take down quite a few large trees, but I feel like the applicant is working pretty hard to put them back in a different form.
    • 03:40:17
      I don't know if anybody has any strong feelings or
    • 03:40:33
      If not, we should just make a motion.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:40:36
      The guidelines, not to beat a dead horse, because there's been a lot of communications on this, but with regard to plantings and our guidelines, number one is encourage the maintenance and planting of large trees on private property along the street fronts.
    • 03:40:51
      which contribute to the avenue effect.
    • 03:40:53
      I would argue that this tree is a street tree for sure.
    • 03:40:58
      I pointed out to Bruce Wardell today, immediately two blocks up and almost in the same location is an ash tree directly in back of my building.
    • 03:41:10
      I wonder if there were a number of ash trees and I know they're not favored.
    • 03:41:15
      I'm not saying I want an ash tree, but I wonder if there were a number of ash trees that were planted
    • 03:41:20
      just a little bit back from Seventh Street at one point.
    • 03:41:24
      It's remarkable that there's a line that goes from one block to another.
    • 03:41:29
      Anyway, guideline four, retain existing trees and plants that help define the character of the district, especially street trees and hedges.
    • 03:41:41
      There are a number of trees that are being taken out.
    • 03:41:43
      There are two other trees.
    • 03:41:44
      that are near this ash tree that are also being removed.
    • 03:41:49
      I understand the plan of development, especially the plan of landscaping requires them to be removed, especially this tree, which I understand would be impacted by subgrade demolition to create this new terrace area.
    • 03:42:09
      But I can't help but note that that's a lot of trees that are being taken out.
    • 03:42:13
      And while the trees generally in this property have been planted to provide shade near the building, and of course, when you expand the building, then the first thing that goes might be a tree, but it's regrettable.
    • 03:42:28
      And I just want to call attention to it because it violates our guidelines.
    • 03:42:35
      And I did ask the applicant if there was an effort
    • 03:42:38
      made to design around the tree and I didn't really get a response to that.
    • 03:42:41
      I do understand that, I'm sorry, the applicant's rep, I do understand that the applicant, the church itself, Mr. Ford just told me that they know that, they all know, I didn't know because I'm a member, but they all know that the tree
    • 03:42:57
      is planned to be removed and they're agreeable to it.
    • 03:43:00
      So everybody, a lot of other people but me are fine with these tree removals because they know this is a beautiful plan of development and a nice way to augment a nice plant that the church currently has on Park Street.
    • 03:43:18
      Sorry, that's my house.
    • 03:43:24
      Even your dog agrees with me, Bruce.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:43:27
      My dog is a lawyer.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 03:43:28
      I do have concerns about the long-term longevity of the tree, just looking at it myself.
    • 03:43:39
      I'm not an arborist, but it is showing a number of different signs of stress.
    • 03:43:45
      It's certainly not doing well in its current configuration.
    • 03:43:51
      And so for me, I'm
    • 03:43:55
      Willing to consider that the removal of that tree is, it may be its time, but I would just wonder if there might be a provision for some other larger canopy trees elsewhere in the property, even if it's distant from this immediate area, it seems like there may be some other places where that could be compensated for.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:44:18
      Well, the church owns the vacant lot directly across
    • 03:44:22
      the parking lot and across from this new landscaped area.
    • 03:44:28
      And there probably would be an opportunity to provide some shade further away from this new three-story addition.
    • 03:44:39
      Further to the north, I would say, for lack of a better direction.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:44:42
      So we do have a representative of the church here.
    • 03:44:49
      But I will say that the congregation has been a fairly strong caretaker of the trees and the landscape around the entire property.
    • 03:45:06
      I was told the story today about a tree that they cabled up for years and years and years until the city finally told them that.
    • 03:45:13
      and let it go.
    • 03:45:14
      And so if the congregation is willing to do some planting of some replacement trees, I certainly would be willing to take that back to the committee or even let Terry speak to that if he's interested.
    • SPEAKER_19
    • 03:45:34
      Sure, I can speak to that.
    • 03:45:36
      I think we'd be more than willing to consider a larger canopy tree in another location.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:45:44
      There is quite a lot of open space towards Park Street.
    • 03:45:50
      I think Cheri, you might have been the one who said that, yeah, it seems like the trees are all closer to the building.
    • 03:45:55
      I don't know if I could make my own wish, it would be that there'd be a shade tree up near Park Street to provide a little shade.
    • 03:46:06
      I know there's a power line that's up there, so maybe not right on the street.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:46:09
      Aren't those comm lines not power lines on that side, I think?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:46:15
      I can't tell from Google.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:46:16
      Yeah, it looks like the comm lines and powers on the other side.
    • 03:46:21
      But, you know, I do know having
    • 03:46:24
      going walking this way to go downtown on a hot summer afternoon that there's not a whole lot of shade once you get right to about this point of Park Street until you get almost up to the end of the street there.
    • 03:46:35
      So it really would be nice.
    • 03:46:37
      And you would only get morning shade on this side.
    • 03:46:40
      Right, that's true.
    • 03:46:41
      It's really, park and common hall and all that need some trees on their side.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 03:46:47
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:46:48
      That is very true.
    • 03:46:50
      And in the meadows, you know, it's
    • 03:46:53
      Pretty prospect over the yard, but anyway.
    • 03:46:56
      There's something else.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:46:59
      So I guess I withdraw my objection, but I just, I mean, again, far be it for me to be called a tree hugger ever for those who know me.
    • 03:47:14
      And I understand its condition, but we don't regularly just take out trees because of their condition.
    • 03:47:22
      And I would not even say it's in decline.
    • 03:47:24
      I would say it's old and compromised and a lot of trees downtown will continue to provide shade for decades to come in the same condition as this tree.
    • 03:47:33
      So I'm not saying I don't agree that it's current condition and there are power lines that have run through it and Dominion Power has chopped part of it off and it's got a large dead branch that
    • 03:47:44
      faces, I guess, faces west.
    • 03:47:48
      But it does provide shade and it provided shade to me today as I walked down 7th Street.
    • 03:47:56
      So I would just note there's a lot of asphalt that this church has once you, you know, just say five years from now, this planting scheme is a little bit grown out and it's a really lovely terrace to walk, you know, to either
    • 03:48:11
      enjoy before going in the building or linger in after the building.
    • 03:48:16
      But once you hit Seventh Street, there is nothing.
    • 03:48:21
      And a lot of the church parks down at that asphalt parking lot.
    • 03:48:24
      There are two small, I would say decorative trees down there.
    • 03:48:28
      and really nothing else.
    • 03:48:29
      And there's a lot, 7th Street is quite wide there.
    • 03:48:33
      And I know it's out of the scope of this application, but that asphalt parking lot is like Hades on a day like today.
    • 03:48:40
      And I would say this because I'm a tenant.
    • 03:48:43
      I also pay rent to the church and rent to spaces down there.
    • 03:48:47
      And it's horrible to have a car parked down there and have to get into it at the end of the day.
    • 03:48:53
      So anyway, not that that's that relevant to this application or the ash,
    • 03:48:58
      I think in north downtown, as we promote pedestrian use, the pedestrians need the shade more than the vehicles that are self-insulating and self-air conditioning.
    • 03:49:12
      So anyway, I'm done.
    • 03:49:13
      Thank you.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:49:14
      So I have one more just quick thing.
    • 03:49:16
      And Bruce, I think this is outside of your purview as well.
    • 03:49:19
      But right now, there are some pretty gnarly wall packs on the north side of that building of the sanctuary.
    • 03:49:30
      And they're not in your drawings.
    • 03:49:32
      Of course not.
    • 03:49:36
      I'm just wondering as part of the, you know, you're developing this whole much more sort of sophisticated approach to this end of the building.
    • 03:49:44
      Is there any chance that can be carried through in terms of development of the parking lot?
    • 03:49:48
      I know you've got some tall light fixtures in there to light the parking lot.
    • 03:49:52
      I'm just wondering about nuking those wall packs, even if Terry likes them.
    • 03:49:57
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:50:01
      You know, Tim, you just pointed them out to me.
    • 03:50:07
      I've looked at that building for I don't know how long, and I would not have, if you had asked me if they were there, I would not have been able to tell you, so.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:50:15
      Yeah, it looks like, at night it looks like it's about to lift off.
    • 03:50:20
      Yeah, right, yeah.
    • 03:50:22
      I'm just thinking if you've got a lighting scheme for the parking lot, it would seem to me that maybe the wall packs could go away.
    • 03:50:29
      since it does look like you've got some, you know, some post lamps and things.
    • 03:50:33
      So just wondering.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:50:36
      We certainly, we can certainly bring that back into the, into the discussion and find out.
    • 03:50:41
      I don't know much about them and how that, what, what they, why they're there and when they got put in and what function they, they.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:50:47
      Well, I know there was a problem with the, um, the Memorial Garden, uh, Cheri, correct me if I'm wrong, where with vagrants and stuff.
    • 03:50:55
      So I think that's one of the reasons there's, it's over lit.
    • 03:50:59
      I don't know if that's still an issue with the Memorial Garden or if that actually looks like it's been displaced, right?
    • 03:51:06
      Or am I wrong about that?
    • SPEAKER_19
    • 03:51:08
      Is that still there?
    • 03:51:10
      It is.
    • 03:51:10
      Memorial Garden is still there.
    • 03:51:11
      They've reduced the height of the landscaping so you have better sidelines to it from the street and adjoining walks.
    • 03:51:17
      I think the wall packs date back, they may date back decades ago when that was just the cheap way to light a site.
    • 03:51:25
      So I would be completely in support of taking those off and having more street lighting supporting the general lighting of the campus.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:51:34
      Right because I mean that's what you know the the kit of parts that Bruce's team's got set for you know the lighting in this immediate area strikes me as the way to handle coming on around up the parking lot there and make it much more subtle and the building would be look much more beautiful at night and all that kind of stuff.
    • SPEAKER_19
    • 03:51:51
      I agree.
    • 03:51:52
      Cut down the light pollution number of good reasons.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:51:54
      Yeah yeah the wall packs are pretty stunning and not in a good way.
    • 03:52:00
      Bruce, now you have to go there at night.
    • 03:52:02
      Yeah, I know.
    • SPEAKER_19
    • 03:52:05
      They're blinding.
    • 03:52:06
      That's true.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:52:07
      They are.
    • 03:52:07
      They're pretty bad.
    • 03:52:08
      Not as bad as the standard, but they're pretty bad.
    • 03:52:10
      Yeah, right.
    • SPEAKER_19
    • 03:52:11
      I completely agree with him.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:52:16
      So unless anybody has any other comments or concerns, it sounds like we have some friendly recommendations.
    • 03:52:24
      Do we have anybody who would like to make a motion?
    • 03:52:31
      or I'll do it.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:52:33
      Since I wasted the most time, I'll make the motion.
    • 03:52:49
      I'm just trying to get there.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:52:51
      Yeah, I am too.
    • 03:52:52
      It's a long packet.
    • SPEAKER_02
    • 03:52:57
      Yes, it is.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:53:00
      Looks like page 174.
    • 03:53:02
      OK, so quick review.
    • 03:53:07
      We're asking for more, some street trees, if possible, or at least some direction that way, correct?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:53:15
      Yeah, as a friendly recommendation, yeah.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:53:18
      To add some more large scale trees to the site.
    • 03:53:23
      And I don't think we have any issues about the windows or
    • 03:53:30
      The general disposition of the building, the way it's arranged on the site, it all makes a great deal of sense.
    • 03:53:35
      You know, I just have my minor wish list about, you know, having more sophisticated site lighting.
    • 03:53:43
      Is there anything else I'm missing?
    • 03:53:45
      Is that it?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:53:46
      I think that was it.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:53:48
      It was the trees and lighting as a... Okay, so having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including city design guidelines for new construction and additions, site design and elements,
    • 03:54:00
      I move to find that the proposed addition, alterations, and landscaping satisfy the BAR's criteria and are compatible with this property and other properties in the north downtown EDC district.
    • 03:54:11
      The bar does request that the client considers revamping the site lighting elsewhere on site so that it is consistent with the new work being done and that the client also, or that the applicant also
    • 03:54:33
      adds more street trees or more shade trees as possible to just enhance the overall canopy of the city and that part of Park Street.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:54:44
      So to clarify, we are approving as submitted and those are recommendations and not required.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:54:50
      Recommendations and not, those are not conditions, those are recommendations.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:54:55
      Is there a second?
    • 03:54:58
      Second.
    • 03:54:58
      I'll second.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:55:03
      Okay, I'll do roll call.
    • 03:55:05
      Mr. Bailey?
    • 03:55:08
      Yes.
    • 03:55:09
      Mr. Gostinger?
    • 03:55:10
      Yes.
    • 03:55:12
      Mr. Schwartz?
    • 03:55:14
      Yes.
    • 03:55:14
      Ms.
    • 03:55:14
      Lengel?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:55:16
      Aye.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:55:16
      Ms.
    • 03:55:17
      Lewis?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:55:17
      Aye.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 03:55:19
      Mr. Zehmer?
    • 03:55:19
      Aye.
    • 03:55:21
      Mr. LeHundro?
    • 03:55:22
      Aye.
    • 03:55:23
      Mr. McClure?
    • 03:55:24
      Yes.
    • 03:55:26
      And Mr. Moore?
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:55:27
      Aye.
    • 03:55:27
      Thank you all.
    • SPEAKER_19
    • 03:55:32
      Thank you so much.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:55:34
      Frankly, I really appreciate the city actually figuring out how to do this.
    • 03:55:41
      It's nice that one of the, you know, some of the pieces of the machinery are starting to move again.
    • 03:55:50
      So I really appreciate, I think this is your first one, isn't it?
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 03:55:54
      It's our second.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:55:55
      That's why it's so smooth.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 03:55:59
      Thanks for hanging out through the whole thing.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:56:01
      Hey, I appreciate you guys getting things going again.
    • SPEAKER_08
    • 03:56:05
      Thank you, Bruce.
    • SPEAKER_05
    • 03:56:06
      Thank you.
    • 03:56:07
      Thanks, Bruce.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:56:09
      Bye, everybody.
    • 03:56:09
      Good night.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:56:12
      Good night.
    • 03:56:13
      B-A-R, do not leave.
    • 03:56:14
      No, I'm not leaving.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 03:56:15
      I was just saying bye to those guys.
    • 03:56:17
      All right.
    • 03:56:21
      What else should we have?
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:56:23
      Other business.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 03:56:24
      Short.
    • 03:56:25
      I know.
    • 03:56:27
      I know.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:56:28
      And Cheri, thank you for bringing that up, because the tree-hugging thing, I mean, yeah, it's what we've been on the board.
    • 03:56:35
      Yeah.
    • 03:56:37
      It's important.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 03:56:39
      It is.
    • 03:56:39
      I mean, that plan of development required, like Breck said, a lot of stuff to be taken out.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:56:47
      But it does have a sea of asphalt, and it is hot as hell there in the summer.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 03:56:52
      And we need to be careful because, I mean, we've got city street trees that come out all the time, too.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:57:00
      Just try walking down North Avenue, for instance.
    • 03:57:02
      I mean, there's not a tree to be found along that street.
    • 03:57:05
      That's just brutal.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 03:57:06
      Well, you know, I think I've said before, down on Garrett Street, you know, with all that redevelopment, I mean, it's probably the definition of a street canopy.
    • 03:57:19
      And that's probably at risk because it's within the city right of way.
    • 03:57:23
      You know, just, I mean, it's not under our purview, but it is the, I don't know.
    • 03:57:30
      And Cheri, you know, when I do get trees that are true street trees, you know, that's when we, I get a lot of questions about trees and sometimes we can solve them with just some dialogue and emails and then I can be able to keep people moving.
    • 03:57:44
      But, you know, when it's something like this, that definitely it's a full BAR on TV discussion.
    • 03:57:52
      So quickly, I had shared with you all that energy guide.
    • 03:58:00
      If you have any thoughts or comments, share them with me.
    • 03:58:02
      We don't have to discuss them now.
    • 03:58:04
      I think I said it all in the email.
    • 03:58:07
      And if you have any questions, let me know.
    • 03:58:11
      Just a quick update on the tents on the mall.
    • 03:58:16
      Thank you, everyone, for coming.
    • 03:58:18
      for the input, it was consistent.
    • 03:58:21
      And what we've done because of just the way things work, the cafe spaces are regulated.
    • 03:58:34
      There are specific ordinance in place for them.
    • 03:58:38
      But also, the BAR is regulated.
    • 03:58:40
      So us just changing our guidelines or there is a process to that.
    • 03:58:45
      What we were able to do is that
    • 03:58:48
      The cafe space regulations allow the zoning administrator to make, to adopt reasonable conditions for the use of those spaces.
    • 03:58:56
      So we worked out with legal that for the duration of, you know, whatever we're calling this period in our lives, that the list that you all helped me develop is, will be enforced within the cafe spaces and any tents that go into those cafe spaces.
    • 03:59:17
      It's moving its way up through the management ladder now.
    • 03:59:21
      And once that's finalized, I'll share with you what's finalized.
    • 03:59:26
      But again, thank you for your help on that.
    • 03:59:30
      I know there's been a lot of questions about lights.
    • 03:59:33
      I'm just not ready to, I can't answer.
    • 03:59:38
      I know at the standard, there was some questions.
    • 03:59:42
      I've been talking to Craig Fabio.
    • 03:59:44
      I thought the lights had been turned off.
    • 03:59:46
      Tim, were they on again, or what was the, hell, you're not even in this state.
    • 03:59:51
      Oh yeah, but I can see them from here.
    • 03:59:53
      You have a drone.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 03:59:53
      Yeah, no, I was here, they were on, they were on the, I mean, I was in town from March through... Yeah, it's all right, we all lost track.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 04:00:08
      I don't know what month it is.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 04:00:09
      Yeah, so they've been on the whole time, and I mean, you know, they're just... Well, we've got... They're bad.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 04:00:18
      Yeah, I mean, we even, we have a bank that'll be coming to you all someday soon, but the applicants are saying that the state code won't allow us to regulate lighting near ATMs.
    • 04:00:30
      I don't know, we've got some work to figure out on that, but overall, yes, our lighting regs need to be revisited.
    • 04:00:39
      The only other thing I may have mentioned is we did get the CLG grant.
    • 04:00:46
      and that's the certified local government grant to do.
    • 04:00:50
      So DHR gave us money or gave the city money towards historic surveys of four historic cemeteries in the city.
    • 04:00:59
      So that's some good news.
    • 04:01:01
      I think that's happened since the last PAR meeting.
    • 04:01:05
      And other than that, I don't know if y'all have any questions for me.
    • 04:01:11
      Thank you for your time.
    • 04:01:12
      When's the place committee meeting?
    • 04:01:18
      You know, I'll be honest, I just don't know.
    • 04:01:23
      I don't know when we're, you know, there's a lot of concerns in NDS.
    • 04:01:26
      And the fact that, you know, this department, we, we probably meet more regularly than most, you know, we don't come in here and go to an office and shut the door.
    • 04:01:36
      So there's a lot of concern about, you know, how that's going to be done.
    • 04:01:40
      And one of the things, oddly enough, is simply the configuration of our hallway.
    • 04:01:45
      You all have been here, the hallway gets really skinny.
    • 04:01:47
      So all right, what
    • 04:01:48
      We do have a green light, red light to go back and forth down the hall.
    • 04:01:53
      Everybody hold their breath.
    • 04:01:57
      Yeah, I know.
    • 04:01:58
      It's just some concern.
    • 04:01:59
      And I think the ladies up front, everyone's trying to say they're the ones that are gonna be dealing with folks every day.
    • 04:02:05
      So I don't know.
    • 04:02:06
      I honestly don't know the answer to that.
    • 04:02:08
      It's okay.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 04:02:10
      That was a loaded question.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 04:02:12
      Nah, it's all right.
    • 04:02:13
      I think we're going backwards across the country.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 04:02:16
      Yeah, we are.
    • 04:02:16
      The thing I was just going to say, though, is it does seem like there's a component of the Zoom interface that I'm not sure how we'd incorporate it in a public meeting, but I think, you know, being able to put the drawings up on the screen, you know, for people to look at it on a computer and all that.
    • 04:02:36
      I think for people not in this space, there's actually something to be said for this format and how we could fold that into our main meetings.
    • 04:02:44
      I don't know whether we all have tablets or something so that we're speaking to the room, but we're also speaking to and interacting with people in the public.
    • 04:02:54
      Not that anybody ever seems to show up at these Zoom meetings, but it just seems like there's some aspect of this format that might be very good.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 04:03:04
      I think it'd be helpful.
    • 04:03:05
      I think I've always said, I think if we had a big whiteboard or a chalkboard in the meeting rooms, we could get a lot of things resolved just because you all are good at expressing yourselves visually.
    • 04:03:18
      And, but that's that, you know, we play with a little bit tonight and I think, you know, Robert and I can continue to find out ways to allow you all to graphically express yourselves, even Jody with his, you know, he did fine, but
    • 04:03:34
      You know, to have a tool that when you all say, here's what I mean, you know, it's available to you.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 04:03:41
      A tablet with, you know, I mean, like a program I use all the time for that kind of thing is called Bluebeam, but then everybody would have to have that same interface.
    • 04:03:48
      But there are programs where, you know, you draw directly on it and you can do that in Zoom.
    • 04:03:54
      Jody did somewhat, but
    • 04:03:59
      The only thing that's wrong with that is the image is on your screen basically, so you draw and as soon as somebody zooms, it doesn't stay with the image.
    • 04:04:08
      So it doesn't really work 100%.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 04:04:10
      Even without the drawing, I think it's nice to be able to get public comment from outside of City Hall.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 04:04:17
      Outside of the room, yes, I agree.
    • 04:04:19
      Because I think there are people that can't make it, and maybe there are people that don't like to stand up in public, but this is
    • 04:04:26
      in a funny way is more intimate because you're seeing a couple of faces, you know, you're not standing up, don't feel like you're standing up in public.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 04:04:34
      So I do think this is with us for some time to come.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 04:04:38
      And so I think so.
    • 04:04:39
      Yeah.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 04:04:39
      Yeah.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 04:04:41
      We're not we're not we're not being very organized as a country so far.
    • 04:04:45
      So I don't see anything changing soon.
    • Jeff Werner
    • 04:04:48
      Sorry, gallows humor.
    • 04:04:54
      Well, I don't think any place is open that we can all go to on Zoom.
    • 04:05:04
      So, thank you all.
    • 04:05:06
      Robert, anything?
    • SPEAKER_12
    • 04:05:08
      We need a motion to adjourn?
    • 04:05:10
      Probably.
    • 04:05:11
      I move that we adjourn.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 04:05:14
      I would like to actually formally welcome Cheri Lewis because isn't this the first one she's participated in?
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 04:05:22
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_04
    • 04:05:22
      Yeah.
    • 04:05:23
      Yes.
    • SPEAKER_14
    • 04:05:23
      Thank you, Cheri, for being so patient and sitting through a virtual meeting.
    • SPEAKER_00
    • 04:05:27
      Thank you all for hearing me going on and on about a tree.
    • 04:05:35
      It's my church.
    • 04:05:36
      I had some collateral there.
    • 04:05:40
      It's OK.
    • Carl Schwarz
    • 04:05:42
      You saw what Tim does with lights.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 04:05:46
      I try to be very consistent about it.
    • 04:05:51
      All right, guys.
    • 04:05:52
      Great to see you all, however far away you may be.
    • SPEAKER_10
    • 04:05:55
      Bye-bye.
    • SPEAKER_09
    • 04:05:57
      Good night.
    • 04:05:58
      Good night, everyone.