Board of Architectural Review Meeting   6/16/2026

We could go back to city space, but that isn't set up.

So this is really helping out friends.

All right, y'all ready?

I think I'm just going to go with our normal.

Good evening.

Welcome to this regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review.

Staff will introduce each item, followed by the applicant's presentation, which should not exceed 10 minutes.

The chair will then ask for questions from the public, followed by questions from the BAR.

After questions are closed, the chair will ask for comments from the public.

For each application, members of the public are allowed three minutes to ask questions and three minutes to offer comments.

Speakers shall identify themselves and comments should be limited to the BAR's purview, that is regarding only the exterior aspects of a project.

Following the BAR's discussion and prior to taking action, the applicant will have up to three minutes to respond.

All right, I want to introduce our new member, Jen Trompeter.

She is a landscape architect.

Hi, Jen.

Thank you.

Sure.

I'm Trompetter.

I am a landscape architect.

I am a landscape architect.

I'm a UVA grad.

I've been practicing.

I've been living in Charlottesville for

Longer than I want to say.

Now, I've been practicing in Charlottesville.

I've practiced at a number of firms here in town.

I went out on my own about 10 years ago, maybe longer.

I haven't had my own practice for a few years, no less than that.

I am excited to be here.

I will be honest, I haven't done a lot of work in Charlottesville, so I'm counting on you all and you all to help educate me.

Awesome.

Well, thank you very much for joining us, and we're looking forward to working with you and your landscape architecture expertise.

Before you move forward, I don't know

Folks who will show up or be online and wish to speak, if you wanted to, because it has been an unusual amount, but if you wanted to alter the questions and comments, now is your opportunity to do that.

And I think Kate did that.

She did.

So as I said, it's not,

I think that they would be here already if there was going to be a crowd.

I agree.

I think we just, thank you Jeff for the reminder, I appreciate that, but I think we'll just stick to our normal team.

Okay.

Anyone here?

Okay.

Next item is the consent agenda.

The only thing on the consent agenda are the meeting minutes from St. Patrick's Day.

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

All right.

Jen wasn't here, so she'll abstain.

Thank you.

There are no deferred items, so we'll go straight to new items.

Our first application is a certificate of appropriateness application for 601 to 617 East Market Street installation of an entry gate.

Okay, yeah, this is a COA request, the installation of a gate at an existing masonry opening in the Mickey building.

This building was constructed in 1900.

It's a two-story brick building.

And it was built for the Mickey Company, which at the time, for some time, was one of the largest printers of legal books and case studies in the South.

There have been, you all have, the BAR's looked at this a couple times, at least in recent memory, but going back to our old files, noticed that quite a lot of changes to this building.

But as you can see, the photos on the left are from 1925.

Looks like the same day, just the blinds are up and the blinds are down.

In the late 80s, there were some alterations approved.

Not everything was realized.

But primarily, you saw a lot of changes to the window and door openings, and not just on this south elevation, but wrapping around the corner.

And one of the interesting pictures, and I don't think I included it, was where the pavilion is now in that landscape space.

So this addition to what we're looking at is in the elevation on the bottom right.

This is an opening that had originally been a window and in 2007 was modified as a doorway.

The door opening itself was not installed.

So the remnants that I see on the wall, I think there's probably evidence just from the window that was there.

They have, when you go into this opening, there are, there's a door into a business.

There's two double doors on either side, but those are fixed.

It's, so this is, you know, the entry is, there you see that wood door.

So the intent is to create a secure opening to close off that vestibule.

And the

The drawing, it's sort of difficult to show something transparent.

But because this is access to an office space, the code official is requiring, you can see some of the egress panel.

And when I think the best image for this, when I looked at the photos of some nearby gates, I understood it made a lot more sense to me.

And I know they're in the staff report.

Not those, it was the... Oh yeah, I didn't include those.

But I think they are in the application.

They are, yeah.

The question, I think that in the context of those images, this drawing makes a lot more sense to me and staff is recommending approval.

I did also ask the applicant, you know, the possibility of doing a, I know because we had discussed it at the court's office building, maybe something like a full piece of glass, but

Those are just ideas.

What you see on the left has been done elsewhere.

We've approved gates nearby.

So again, I guess our recommendations approval.

I know Candace is here to represent the applicant and or she is the applicant and the designer.

Good evening.

I'm Candice Smith.

I'm an architect.

My office is at 202 6th Street Northeast, just around the bend from this building.

The proposed metal gate installation really aims to minimize the alterations to the existing structure, the arch transom that

Okay, thank you.

Do we have any questions from the public?

Anybody online?

I have one.

I think I know the answer, but I'll ask it anyway.

Thank you.

That's why I included in my staff report the sentence, the design identifies the gate as not historic while contributing to the contemporary eclectic elements that have been added over the years to this historic building.

I think the Babar lights are almost historic at this point, aren't they?

Is the primary purpose of this gate security?

Yes, and it'll just be closed at night.

Do you need the dark panel there?

And the reason for those is,

Do you mind?

Those two big black panel things.

One is at the Mickey building and one is on Main Street.

But the gate is secured with a key on the outside for getting in, a key pad.

And on the inside, it has to be able to be just pull the lever and escape.

And so if we don't put a security panel of some kind,

You can reach over and just lift it open and open the gate.

I also say I suspect that, at least at the tavern, the Monticello Hotel,

Had it gotten code, that was the first question when Kenneth asked me.

I'm just curious about the glass panel.

I'm assuming it's glass.

Just clear glass, tempered, and maybe the address on it so people can identify.

Did you say it would swing inward when it's open?

Yes.

Those are fixed doors.

They have desks and things up against them.

They don't have handles.

They don't open.

Also swing out or just in?

Well, she said they already talked to each other.

Yeah, then Chuck said it was fine.

If you have a limited number of people, you can swing in.

That's just on the black metal panel.

So it's just using a picket to make a square as though it was a raised panel.

So it's just an applied half inch square that will be black like the others.

And then I wondered about the powder coated black mild steel, if that was consistent with the other steel

elements that you have.

They actually are weathered copper.

I was just curious if the powder coating would be consistent with even that one picture.

There's a metal, the sign is hanging from a

That is black.

Yeah.

Right.

OK. Any other questions?

Any comments from the public?

No, I'm not.

Any comments from the board?

Please go ahead.

Okay.

Second.

All righty.

Mr. Schwartz?

Yes.

Mr. Bailey?

Yes.

Mr. Birle?

Yes.

Ms. Lewis?

Aye.

Mr. Timmerman?

Yes.

Ms. Tabony?

Yes.

I vote yes.

Good luck with your gate.

Thanks.

It's nice to go 9 and 9-0.

Thank you, Carl.

All righty.

And this is one of our favorite types of projects, a non-contributing building, non-historic windows, non-original.

And so hopefully, I mean, the approach I've taken

It's reasonable.

So this is an apartment building on Grady Avenue constructed in 1952.

I have a special place in this building, that apartment on the second floor on the right hand side.

In grad school, my daughter got very upset because my friend there didn't give her

Jello, and a fancy jar, just gave it to her in a bowl.

So my three-year-old took umbrage with that.

So yeah, I had this strong feelings about this building.

So anyway, 1952, this is in the Rugby Road, University Circle, Venable, ADC district.

It's, as I said, the

Windows are not original.

They are replacement windows.

I'm not sure what the exterior even was on this.

And you saw on the front there the two large trees that used to be there.

They were removed.

They were structurally damaging the building.

But some oaks have been planted to replace them.

Just saw that the other day.

I just want to note that.

The challenge on this one is that the applicant is requesting the use of a vinyl window, which our guidelines discourage.

They don't preclude, but they discourage.

And I was curious more about the alignment of the

of The Sash, and if it would, so really just playing around to give me a rough idea, and then looking at some buildings nearby where they're, you know, the double-hung windows with, that are wider than they are high, so I, this was more a satisfying curiosity for myself, so I think the double-hung do work.

The color is fine.

I am not an expert on vinyl windows, but I know things have improved with time.

But I think given the intent here and given the

Aesthetic result, I'm comfortable recommending approval.

But it does raise a question.

I think we need to talk about it.

Moving forward, and certainly later tonight, we'll be looking at another project that has vinyl windows.

What are some of the decision points that we'd want to look at?

Where does a vinyl window cross the line?

into being a preferred product.

The idea is, Carl and I had some back and forth about this, is you could go with a window that meets all our criteria, but it could be a poorly constructed builder grade window.

So it's possible.

Vinyl windows in some circumstances might be preferable.

But again, in this circumstance, I've recommended approval.

I think Cassie is here, if you all have any questions for them.

But do you have any questions for me?

Is there someone on the staff report who mentioned the color?

It's like a bronze on the exterior.

It's their sliders right now.

Double hum, right.

Is it going to have divided lights?

No, it's just single.

It's been in the guidelines for some time, and the guidelines haven't, particularly on that, haven't changed.

If this were work on a historic building,

It'd be a different response to it.

But I think the objective, or I'm sorry, the objection previously just been the quality of the material.

You know vinyl windows at that time were a sort of a builder grade product and just not appropriate for within a historic district.

But I think there are

Hi, I am Kasiah.

I will be representing Woodard Properties for this project.

So for this initial phase, we will be doing 36 of the windows, the 36 existing aluminum windows throughout the building.

Throughout the next three years until 2029, we do expect full window replacement of all 130 of the windows.

A few of those are double-hunk already.

They are aluminum.

They are the ones that's in the back room.

All the other existing windows are the sliders.

The proposal placement of the units consists of the bronze vinyl double-hunk windows that are consistent with the surrounding neighborhood's architectural context and also ensuring minimal visual impact with a cohesive, refined exterior appearance.

We also want to use vinyl rather than higher cost materials.

Awesome.

Thank you.

Anybody have any questions?

No one's raised hands.

Nobody in the room.

I have one.

Is the interest in replacing them have to do with any

No to the operation.

And I know there's, I guess, folks have said the aluminum windows aren't the original windows.

Do you or anyone have any idea when the aluminum windows were installed?

We're guessing a little after 1952.

The building is 1952.

But it was just a curiosity.

Any comments from the public?

Online or here?

No.

Comments from the board?

So I guess my concern is I feel like when we

Approve a vinyl window.

We need to have some sort of proof that it's a quality vinyl window.

Looking at the marketing materials for this, there wasn't anything in there that told me that it's commercial quality, that it's going to last for multifamily apartments.

I found that the warranty online and the warranty explicitly excludes commercial properties or anything that's not owner occupied.

So that right there makes me

I want you to pick a different vinyl window and prove to us why we should accept that vinyl window.

I'm okay with vinyl as long as I have some sort of reassurance that it's quality, that it's going to last and that it's not going to fall apart.

I don't feel like we have enough information right now.

I mean, there's a lot of marketing in there about the energy savings, which is great.

I totally 100% want you guys to get energy efficient windows.

But if you guys want to vote yes, that's just where I'm standing right now.

I had a different thing that I just wanted to mention, which I had raised in an email.

We're changing the profile of the aperture from side by side to double hung.

And in my opinion,

Side-by-side windows, which sliders, which look like casemen, I was mistaken about them.

They're not a character-defining feature of the building, but I just want to note that if I felt like those windows were, that I wouldn't want to replace them with a different profile.

But I don't think that the change impacts the building at all.

I also would note that 1952,

We have properties in the city that have been designated on our IPP list that are much newer than 1952.

So saying that this building is not historical, we may not find it interesting or 100 years old.

But it certainly is an old building.

So anyway, that was a footnote at the end.

But I just wanted to note that we haven't talked about the profile of the windows changing.

And I think if there were.

A different type of window, a more unique window and character defining and define the facades of this, we would be discussing that now.

I do feel like the fact that it's a non-contributing building kind of lets me back off a bit, but at the same time, since

Typically we don't allow vinyl windows for our guidelines.

There kind of needs to be like a good reason to do so.

And that's sort of in step with Carl's thoughts of something quality just really to ensure just the integrity of the neighborhood that, you know, by the time you're halfway through replacing them, they don't start falling apart before you even finish the job, right?

In the same breath, I was ready to approve this.

So I don't know if, I guess let me ask the applicant, what are your thoughts about doing some research on possibly a product that's still affordable but maybe is a little higher level quality that, for example, has a warranty that applies to commercial buildings?

Yeah, we can definitely do some more research.

I will say for the ones that we did price out, it's not the series 100, which is like the lowest grade.

Yeah.

Well, I think to Carl's point, if the warranty doesn't cover commercial properties, if something happens and it gets damaged, then there's no warranty.

just for your own awareness.

So, I mean, there's a couple different ways we could do this.

We can go ahead and make a motion and take a vote or the applicant can request a deferral or we can defer it.

Are there people who would want to approve it tonight?

I would too.

You guys probably want to take a vote.

Having considered the standards set forth within the city code including the ADC district design guidelines, I move to find the proposed window replacements at 1410 Grady Avenue, satisfy the BAR's criteria and are compatible with this property

Second.

All right.

We'll take a vote.

Mr. Schwartz?

No.

Mr. Bailey?

Yes.

Mr. Birle?

Aye.

Ms. Lewis?

Aye.

Mr. Timmerman?

Yes.

Mr. Rosenthal?

No.

I'm going to vote yes.

So 7 to 2.

And hope it all works out.

Have a good evening.

Thank you.

All righty.

Our next certificate of appropriateness application is for 835-843-847 West Main Street.

We've looked at this most recently last month and then

Back in, was it August?

I wish we had an interesting name to use for it.

835, 843, 847.

We'll just have to get okay with that rolling off the tongue.

I thought about LV Collective, but that's the developer and they may be doing things elsewhere.

But this is a project, a COA request for a new multi-story apartment building on what is currently a vacant lot and has for some time been

It's a three parcel lot but for many decades has been used as surface parking and there's a small single story building on the site.

This had been a, I don't know the date of the residence or when it was

An old house and property by the 19th century.

But you all have reviewed this twice before.

Last August, you had a pre-op conference on this, and then in May, so last month,

We continued that pre-app conference with preliminary discussion about some additional details and at that time the applicant had reduced the height to the building.

It had originally been 11 stories on four sides and shifted to the west.

This version, nothing has changed in the elevations from what you saw.

but it is now eight stories on the front facing West Main and it steps down to six stories at the rear which is adjacent to the West Haven neighborhood.

There's an awful lot in the staff report.

I won't go through all of it.

I think just hit on

Some of the highlights of it I think from a relative design guidelines is a function of height, massing scale, the spatial elements.

This building certainly meets the criteria.

Material wise, I know there's questions about the cement board, but these are, it does employ materials which you all have approved before.

The windows are proposed as vinyl and there's not a specific specification on it.

I had offered to the applicant that something that tonight they would have to address satisfactorily if we didn't have information ahead of time.

They did provide

A lot of discussion at the last meeting was about building sections and some of the details at the brick and the transitions and the recessing of the windows, etc.

and they've provided information which responds to that.

You all requested a sun shade analysis, which they provided an analysis.

I'm not qualified to say whether this is sufficient for what you all need, but one has been provided.

And the last comment I had here about sort of the design overall was one of the questions that you raised, and this is why it's good to have this view here,

As has been for some time a focus of this project is that transition to the West Haven neighborhood where now the rear of the new building is set back further from a property I think 30 to 40 feet so there's space there

It's the question of what's going on in that space.

And one of the questions that was raised in May was that a preference for orchid trees, a visual buffer that's appropriate for that spot.

And in fact, Jen and I were talking before the meeting and I said that there's, you know,

You know, what's the right thing there?

Is it trees?

Is it a hedge?

Is it, you know, plantings?

Is it, you know, and it's in your purview to take a good hard look at that.

So to me that's one of the last or one of the big question marks and I know that that was a particular concern of the folks in West Haven as well.

I laid out in my recommendation, I know I have recommended approval with conditions that are noted.

Ms. Trompetter mentioned something to me earlier tonight that she can raise that I think is worth considering.

But if you're going to, I feel like

There's information here that allow you to make a decision, whether it's to approve or to deny, it's there.

But if you all, if there's something additional and this is, if it isn't presented in the discussion or something additional that you want to see or hear, I would ask that that be, sort of approach that with the mind of this is information that would allow approval of the project.

If this is a project that's going nowhere as far as the CO is concerned, I think it's fair to express that.

I wouldn't want to go to a fourth meeting and then say nah.

And that was some of the comments that happened with the mark.

We looked at it an awful lot, but then it took us a while to reach a conclusion.

So that's my recommendation is that

If you're going to defer this or suggest they defer it, then that is with the eye towards providing information that will help with a decision.

But if you're not happy with where this is, let's make that statement tonight.

Now you all do have

The ability, as the BAR, to defer this to next month.

That's your call.

You can do this.

That would just mean that they'd have to turn around any reapplication very quickly.

But the BAR, if you vote to defer something, it's

deferring it to the next meeting, so deferring to the July meeting.

If the applicant requests a deferral, then it's, at least by our procedures manual, they can defer it for up to 18 months.

After that, it would have to become a new application.

I've touched on the memorial walk-in here, and I don't want to get into a discussion about it, if not necessary.

Just to clarify on that, essentially we're ruling on the project that walkway connector as designed.

That's right.

And then if, I believe what I read was, if that were to get community involvement and a design flushed out,

And the caveat there is kind of like, yeah, when you get a community-led design, just be really careful about, you know, they've come up with something to then put it in front of the BAR for a yes or no.

I think the way you laid it out was pretty clear.

I think it's a good process in terms of it would go through staff review first, which is pretty much everything comes through you guys first anyways.

And then you could also reach out to the chair and vice chair, bounce ideas off us, and we can help determine whether it needs to come to the full BAR.

I think the marching orders for tonight are what's in front of us.

And I had a good conversation yesterday with one of the individuals associated with the community.

And it's a rather dry paragraph in here.

And I was worried.

I don't want to communicate that this matter doesn't matter.

But I'm trying to find.

As dry as it is, it's simply saying as a means to an end here, we don't have a design.

We can't approve something to be determined later, so I needed a something that you all could either say this is okay or this is not okay.

I very much hope that if this project is approved and moves forward that

What's been shared with the neighborhood will be realized, but I don't know how you all within your purview can compel that or require that.

At the very least, what we can do is acknowledgement in the discussions that this has been raised, that this has been promised.

But you all can't go so far as to say, I'm approving this only if this happens in the future.

Great.

And this is what we talked about at the end of the last meeting, or at the end of this

Pre-application Conference for this project at last month's meeting.

So I said, there's a lot in here.

I have a question for staff.

I guess it's in the staff report.

There's a letter in here from City of Charlottesville NDS to Timmons Group from just, I don't know,

12 days ago that's talking about the plan being denied.

Give it the best.

Yeah.

We are planners, but we don't review site plan and development plans every day.

Development plans are either approved or denied.

So if there are any comments that need to be addressed, whether it's zoning related, in previous development plans there were engineering comments.

An approval of a development plan requires a COA.

Amen.

And this is a

Yes, it's a bit of a Gordian knot, cart before the horse, pick a metaphor.

Because I would even go so far as to say, then simply state on the development plan, I must get a COA for this.

So the circumstances with it are, and what we're saying is that with a site plan, ultimately you need a site plan to build, you look below grade.

So like, I don't know, let's say there's

A giant lake 50 feet underneath this property.

Oh my gosh, we can't build there.

There's a giant lake there.

Without looking below grade, the development plan doesn't identify that.

It's more of a two-dimensional view looking down.

So the risk to the developer and the applicant is that if you all approve a design and then that becomes part of that approved development plan,

They move forward with the site plan and find that giant lake and can't build what was approved, they have to come back.

So it's at their risk that they are assuming that they can

What's shown on that development plan and approved by the COA can be transferred successfully to an approvable site plan.

And if not, then we see them again with a revised design.

Does that make sense?

I'm not trying to sound catty about it, but yeah, it's kind of as simple as it comes down to.

I wanted to just ask a question on the memory walk if we could go back to the contextual plan that was up just for clarification for us and for the members of the public there on this contextual plan there is no area designated as memory walk but I believe it's item one

which is the pedestrian walk and the vehicular alley, I think that's how it's described, vehicular drive aisle and pedestrian promenade.

Well, the intent

And I also shared an email with you all today from Emily Dreyfus, who raised some questions.

And if you want to address those, you can discuss them.

I'm just asking what it is and what we're asked not to look at it.

Is that all it is?

All it is.

Because it's not labeled as memory walk on the contextual plan.

So for members of the public trying to make a connection about what the memory walk means, I'm pointing out that it's number one on that plan.

Yeah, and that was the space that was identified as available for that.

It's possible whenever it occurs, it surrounds the building.

So it's a, you know, we're also not limiting

what the community may come up with.

And yes, it's a sidewalk on the side, a driveway in and out of the parking garage, and then where the number one is there.

That's a continuation of a semi-permeable paved surface, which allows vehicular traffic to the cell tower site number five on the east side.

So that's what it will, as currently designed and as you're looking at, that's what it will accomplish.

Towers on a separate parcel, yeah.

I just want to take a moment to compliment staff on the excellent staff report.

Thank you, guys.

Thank you.

Let's go to our applicant.

Hopefully everybody can hear me a little better tonight.

I'll just really kick us off here, but most of the presentation will be from Mohammed since we're going to really focus on the details and the architecture.

But I just wanted to take a second to again say thank you.

For the feedback and to acknowledge that we spent a lot of time trying to make sure that we responded to each and every single one.

And I know some of those will be done here in the meeting with physical samples.

I figured that was a little easier than the email.

Back and forth.

We've made some pretty big changes, one of them being wrapping the brick around the north and the west facade.

I thought it was a great suggestion, an appropriate one, so we went ahead and did that.

But majority of what we've done is a commitment to the details that the rendering suggests so that really we show that we are committed to actually providing the details, but also to make Jeff's job a little easier.

during the site plan process so that everybody's really clear on what it is that we are proposing.

Before I kick it over to Mohamed, I know Jeff mentioned the possibility of a deferral.

I do want to go on record and say that it is our desire to hopefully get to a vote today.

No matter what that vote is, we are very hopeful for a vote.

And then maybe just touching on the memory walk, I want to publicly state that it is still LV's collectives

Good evening.

Thank you all for having us.

I'm Mohamed Nohsen, architect with Niles Bolton.

I'm going to pick up from where we left last time.

We got some great feedback.

I think the direction that we had presented in our meeting in May.

It was received well in general in terms of the adjustments that we've made since our meeting from August of 25.

We've shown the renderings, we've shown the depth, we've shown the massing.

We did get questions or were asked for a little bit more information related to

How is that depth really going to translate into the two-dimensional elevations and the plans and all of that and so what we've done working with with staff is we went back to the elevations and looked at all these renderings that we've done with the corbeling and the brick and the depth that was presented

and identified five key wall sections around the perimeter that have these changing conditions from the core building to overhang the building, entry the garage, main lobby.

And we've kind of identified those here where you see the red dots.

These are kind of the wall sections.

We've got three of them along West Main, given there was a lot of transitions that took place along that frontage.

We've got one through the parking entry there on the west facade.

And then we've got another one along the east facade where we have the parking at the ground and then the change of planes that are occurring further up with the residential levels.

And these

Next slide.

Here we go.

And so these are the five sections that we've identified.

And you can see we've kind of enlarged a couple of them that I'll run through in the following slides.

So that really starts to kind of show the renderings, show the design intent, what we were considering from massing and transition and layering of materials.

And here we've kind of taken a step further with these wall sections to really understand constructability one, but also like where do we kind of start to identify these dimensional changes and the depth that has been presented.

And so the next few slides kind of are zoom-ins on just enlarged details in a couple of areas from those wall sections.

On the screen now you're seeing the brick corbeling that's happening along West Main and as it wraps the corner on the west facade fronting the standard building.

This is the condition at the amenities along West Main and also at the front door at the lobby.

These here are a couple other conditions where we've got overhangs on the elevated levels, so a couple of soffit conditions.

The bottom right is the soffit condition kind of above that parking level that's fronting the east side, and then a couple of parapet conditions further up in the building.

So these are all coming from the wall sections and enlarged in dimension to give us a little more clarity on exactly what's being proposed.

And here's a couple of other parapet conditions that we're illustrating here.

Plan Transitions, these are enlarged floor plan details showing how we transition from outside corner transition where we have fiber cement panel, brick transitions at the corner, transitions from brick to fiber cement.

So just kind of giving us a little bit more information on that depth.

This is the

The west facade, the ground level where we talked about a lot of the service rooms, there was some concerns about how we can address this area.

It is where we have the celebrated or the memory walk and the connection, yet we had a lot of utilities located in this area.

Part of it is just the challenging access that we have on this development.

There's really very few areas we can get these vehicles and

get access to the utilities and services that are necessary but we've kind of really pushed the design a little bit further here and kind of we're illustrating between brick texturing, a little bit of corbelling, brick pilasters that you're seeing,

to start to really kind of give it a strong character, even though it's not necessarily a transparent use.

So these are solid doors, solid brick.

You can't really see it through the wall.

And then on the right side there, again, there's a little profile that shows how we're stepping and just kind of that dimensional change in plane.

And then this is a vignette.

The colors here are not necessarily what we're after, but it kind of shows

That back, that northwest corner, the beginning of the memory lane coming from West Haven, we talked about adding brick at the back of the development, that was a comment that we heard last month as well.

Treat portions of that back as if it's also the front, bring the brick and the materiality and the change of massing to the backside of the building as well.

And so we've done just that and this is kind of looking at that northwest corner where you see all the brick detailing coming together along the memory walk and then further up at that corner.

We talked a little bit about windows last week and so we are proposing vinyl windows.

We discussed earlier a discussion about vinyl windows.

I do have a sample that I'll pass around here.

Vinyl windows have come a long way.

They're very efficient.

They're thermally broken so they do contribute to the sustainability and energy efficiency of the building.

The manufacturing and the process now allows for us to have a lot of colors.

We're proposing black vinyl windows along the perimeter of the building.

We have talked about the depth.

I know with vinyl windows the frame does need to come fairly close or flush if not project slightly beyond the fiber cement panel.

And that's the detail that we need so that we can cop around the perimeter and provide a proper seal.

However, we are, you know, with the manufacturer that we're looking at, or similar manufacturers, some of them do have the ability to provide that deep back set, which is the frame that we have at the top there, where the frame does stay fairly flush with the exterior, but the glazing and the sash the window itself gets pushed in to provide some additional depth.

So, typical frame, we kind of put the frame right at the edge and put the glaze

They're glazing right at the face and the whole thing feels fairly flat

With profiles like this, we're able to get the glass pushed in so we can get a deeper shadow line within the window frame itself.

So it really kind of helped provide that depth.

We are proposing that on the west main facade and the west elevation, where we have the memory walk, knowing that that's where the building is going to be experienced from close proximity.

People walking right under those elevated levels where the vinyl windows are proposed.

Along the east and the north sides we are proposing to stick to the original frame which is the one at the bottom there.

So we've got a couple of details here showing that window profile and brick showing in fiber cement and kind of the range of depth that we're able to achieve with that deep back set profile.

These are some images from the manufacturer that we are looking at as basis of design.

It's hard to tell that that's a vinyl window.

It really looks like a metal frame from an aesthetic standpoint.

They've come a long way in terms of being able to provide

They used to have a lot of curves and bends in the fabrication process, but with the higher end products, they're now able to get these profiles that are fairly rectangular and they almost look exactly like, from a distance, almost exactly like aluminum windows.

The storefront, we've got the details here.

I don't think we had, we didn't hear concerns on this.

We are keeping everything at the ground where we have the amenities, where we have the front lobbies and where we touch the ground.

We're using storefront.

And then fiber cement is another one that we talked about last month.

Similar to the vinyl windows, fiber cement has come a long way.

We're looking at James Hardy as kind of the basis for design here.

A big part of the perception of the fiber cement panel is typically where you might see the

The product looks like it's aging quickly.

It typically ends up being around at the joints where you have the panel to panel conditions.

We are proposing

We are proposing a reveal system, easy trim reveal that's a heavier gauge and it's a lot more durable than your typical kind of aluminum hardware or the reveals that you use with fiber cement installed.

This is certainly far more superior.

I'll pass these around so you can see the gauge that we're looking at.

But also compared to a baton install that tends to age quickly and then it's very hard to keep those joints straight.

So with this product here we can get a much cleaner joint and that typically really is how the fiber cement is perceived.

These are a couple of example projects that actually LB Collective developed.

This is in Columbus, Ohio.

You can see all of the elevated panel there.

That's fiber cement panel.

And I believe that's using the easy trim reveal.

This next one here is in Athens.

This is one that actually I personally worked on with the LB Collective team.

And I can say that that one does have the easy trim reveal that I'll pass around.

This project, however, it did not have the deep set frame.

So this was the typical final window where you can kind of see in these photos the face of the glazing is fairly close to the exterior finish.

So we're kind of proposing a slightly different approach here as I mentioned.

And then lastly this is the solar study.

We've kind of looked at it four times during the year just to show how this building impacts the surrounding area.

I'm happy to answer any questions on that.

and then finally just the materials that we're proposing.

So with that said, I'm happy to pass these around.

This is that black vinyl window that we're talking about fully.

It's thermally broken.

It's easy to reveal.

I have a couple of hardy fiber cement panels in here.

I'll put them in the box as well.

They kind of click into the hardware, so if you want to see how it all comes together.

Maybe I'll start this one on NIMS.

And then I also have a couple of great samples here.

We haven't necessarily seen exactly which products we're using, but you can see they're all kind of in the same range of colors.

Great, thank you.

We'll start with any questions from the public.

A few folks have come in and joined us.

Thank you for joining us tonight.

So we'll start with questions.

I know some of y'all weren't here at the beginning.

We are going to allow three minutes for questions from the public.

Then we'll allow questions from the BAR.

Then we'll allow comments from the public, and then comments from the BAR.

So just our typical procedure.

Just want to remind everybody, since we've had some folks join us.

So again, we'll start with questions from the public.

Let's start online.

Okay.

Anyone from the public here this evening would like to speak?

Please come up to the podium, state your name and locality.

My name is Emily Dreyfus and I'm here on behalf of the Legal Justice Center.

Yes.

Well, I sent an email yesterday that hopefully most of you have read.

One of the concerns, which has a question, is about asking their intentions for community dialogue.

There, to my knowledge, has been no attempted community dialogue since the last BAR meeting.

I work closely with the Public Housing Association of Residents, so I think I would have heard if there had been some follow-up, but it's concerning that the last time they were here, they heard that you were going to approve and then the dialogue.

It seems to have stopped.

So if you could ask their intentions and set up a timeline for check-ins, that's my question.

I didn't phrase it like a question, but could you please do that?

Let's see.

The perspective view that I requested from 806 Hardy Drive is something that I think you all would benefit from as well, understanding how things will look from the street level.

The plan for the West Haven redevelopment will ultimately have tall buildings where it will be like window to window at the lower floors, so it would be helpful if

We could get more information and I would like to ask if you could request that perspective view and not approve until you get that information.

I have lots of questions about the solar study and you all probably know a lot more about solar studies than I do but at a minimum would you please ask them to do one that reflects 9 a.m., 3 p.m., and 6 p.m. in addition to the noon view because I think as the sun moves it will change the shadow.

Lastly, and this may be the most impactful thing, is whether you could do more to ask them about greenery in the back and currently from the street view.

I don't think most people will be able to even see the greenery if it's low, so it would need to be tall trees that could survive in the shadow of the building with a lot of shade.

And if you could please

Take any ideas that you have and help ensure that large trees or perhaps a hedge or other attractive materials could soften the view for residents of West Haven who will be the most harmed folks, obviously, with this development.

And I do also want to just say thank you for all that you did on the mark.

Thank you very much.

All right, any other questions from the public?

Okay, questions from the BAR?

I had a couple and if you want to, let's see.

Does that work?

Yeah, yeah.

A quick rattle down, public engagement dialogue, ask intentions, which you did speak to before some folks came, so you can repeat yourself there.

The perspective view, solar study and greenery in the back.

Yeah, my choice would be not to kind of speak to it, but I will because there's a specific question.

Multiple attempts were made via email and I can provide those emails for public record and I can provide phone calls to where contact was attempted with all community members, and they were all copied, but with a specific direction towards attending the West Haven planners meeting.

Two attempts were made and both times the day of I was asked to attend

Virtually, and then when I asked for the details of the virtual meeting, I was no longer invited.

The purpose of that West Haven planners meeting was to go through a lot of those questions.

The intent of the first one in my mind was to talk about the building overall, but I was told by the leader of that West Haven planner meeting, who is not on behalf of West Haven, it's CHRA,

I was told that the purpose of the meeting was just for the ground level memory walk and I said, great, that's perfect.

I was hopeful to come to this meeting with some dialogue on that between us and the community.

But like I said, two attempts in writing, follow up calls.

We had the discussion with Mr.

Sales with CHRA and hopefully you guys can understand why I did not want to get into that here.

That's not the point of this meeting.

But at the same time, if a question is asked, I'd like to respond to that and I will go on public record and say, again, our intent is to dialogue with the community.

Thank you.

So that answers the trees in the back.

So the trees in the back are a little tricky.

We're happy to discuss that in detail right now and put on our plans what is controllable within our property line.

I'm not evading that.

If we just want to ignore the community dialogue and just put what you guys see fit, great.

Let's do that.

But the intent was it's a little fuzzy because the property line is right in the middle between our building and the six-story West Haven building.

And some of the plans that I've seen from West Haven have improvements on our property line, which is OK. We're open to that.

But how can I design landscaping without knowing what's on our property line?

We're happy to provide that.

But without the opportunity to have that dialogue,

A bit of a conundrum.

Was there another question that I missed?

I think that answers the back end.

We do have different dates on the solar study.

Put it back on the screen.

and you know obviously at noon is when the sun is up high early in the morning it will be a little bit lower in the afternoon will be a little bit lower but you know we kind of picked we picked one time in the day to kind of show how it would be at noon recognizing that that's probably when you're gonna get the most sun because the sun is gonna start dropping as it gets early in the morning further in the afternoon that that was kind of

And I feel like you do have some landscape plans with proposed plantings at the back of the property, correct?

We did our representative landscape plans.

It was a specific request from the community as a part of a negotiated community benefits agreement that has not been signed, but it is still our public intent to work towards that.

It was the community's request that we use Water Street Studios for the ground level or just landscaping specifically on the memory walk and in between our two buildings.

We committed to that.

We continue to commit to that.

Okay.

We have a series of slides in here in the package, yeah, Page 7 all the way through 12 in your package that kind of has the trees lighting.

Furniture as kind of a representation of what was proposed.

And I think the only other thing to really address really quick from a massing standpoint related to how the building feels from a couple of areas around the site, we do have a couple of these massing or just these studies that we've put together looking at the building from Hardy and 8th.

This is the view on the screen.

and then this page 25 in your package.

This is looking at it from 10th and Page.

There's a couple other views that are kind of further up looking back towards West Haven and then our building in the backdrop just from a progression of scale and height.

So those are in your package as well.

Thank you.

So we're still in

Questions from the BAR period right now.

I had a question.

Yes, the Athens one completed two years ago.

So the 2024 delivery, August 2024, and then August 2025.

So just two to three years old tops.

Yeah.

OK.

I was asking just in terms of some of the questions there, maybe about the 5% panel and just aging and things, but they're brand new.

Also, I think I read that the bricks are full thickness, right?

That's correct.

Just for color.

That's right, yeah.

And then on the window depth sheet, which I had it pulled up before I scrolled, I saw somewhere, I think it was a plus or minus three inches to four inches deep, recessed, and then the others were

So that's the two different options.

So we're kind of proposing a deeper inset for where the glazing is going to be located.

That's the three and a half inches along West Main and the memory walk.

Yeah, I guess that's what I was curious about right here.

It says varies from inch and a half to three and a half and that's, you know, two inch variance.

Yeah, I think it's a little hard to see but maybe zoom.

So like this one here, this frame here, you can kind of see where the window, where the glazing is going to be located right here.

It's kind of pushed a good bit from the outside face, the outside edge of the frame.

And so that would be the three and a half.

And that would be proposed on the vinyl windows that are fronting West Main and the ones that are fronting the memory wall.

And then the lower end of the range would be, let me zoom in on that one.

Yeah, so they're really kind of drawn to handle both in a way.

It's just really saying from the face of the fiber cement to the face of the glazing is going to be an inch and a half, plus or minus, you know,

The 1-3-8th is actually the overhang from the flange to the outside edge of the frame.

This is the outer from where the flange is installed to the outside edge of the frame.

It's really the same because the finish is the same so this is sheathing and the fiber cement panel and then that frame extends out so that you can pop around the perimeter for a seal.

I have a number of landscape related questions but I don't know if we want to lump all those

Yeah, maybe so.

Thank you.

Any other comments or questions on the windows?

Thanks.

Carl brought up on the previous one about the quality of these vinyl windows.

Are these commercial?

Absolutely.

This sample here specifically is VPI, is the window manufacturer that provides it and that's a commercial grade vinyl window.

Our preference is to kind of keep it open.

The specs are going to be calling out for these quality windows, but we would be looking to, you know, bid the job at some point and we want to be able to keep it open to other manufacturers, but that's the level of detail and quality that we'd be after.

Two things on the manufacturer.

That comment's going to come in from me because I've developed projects where you commit to it and then they go out of business or it's just not available due to lead times.

So it's not that we are unwilling to commit and that's why we've tried to add the dimension here.

We're very happy to commit to the dimensions.

It's just trying to give ourselves a little flexibility when it comes to buyout and scheduling sequencing.

to be able to have a little flexibility as it relates to manufacturer's prospects, absolutely.

And then also wanted to talk through the window color.

One thing we talked through is LV does black windows on all of our buildings, which is a premium and also limits the groups that we can go to.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, typically.

And long ago, vinyl windows only came in white, ivory.

It was like two or three colors.

And then as the manufacturing process advanced, they were able to start to get an array of different colors.

Typically, the higher end manufacturers, the higher end products are the ones that you're going to find that are able to offer these different colors, especially the darker colors.

And so that sample here is kind of what we would be looking at doing along the perimeter.

And that's usually kind of a, you know.

It's an indication that it's a higher quality window.

It's not single family product.

There's a lot more to it than color, but it's the color, it's the efficiency, the way it's thermally broken, and the efficiency it provides.

I have a question about what you were showing on your details and this sample.

They look like two different kinds of windows.

I believe that this section here specifically is taking kind of not at the frame, but it's taking kind of at a sash condition, at an inside where you've got kind of the top panel and the bottom panel there, the top and bottom sashes, and it's not necessarily showing the actual frame.

This?

Yeah.

I'm agreeing with Dave here.

I don't see that.

That's because the section here that you're seeing, you're talking about these details, correct?

Yeah.

So this section here is kind of showing the frame and the sash.

I'm going to zoom in on it again real quick.

This is showing the top frame.

This section would probably be just this portion here at an intersection between the mullions.

If you have a double window, that would be that intersection right there.

Right.

It's not the frame because the frame doesn't need the stiffening because it's already attached to the studs.

But all of this except for that stiffener in here, all of that is fine.

So you're talking about, I know you've said this multiple times, the West Main Street and the west facade will be deeper, but you've got, what happens where you turn the corner of the brick from the West Main Street side to the east side?

It almost seems like the

That makes sense.

Thank you, Douglas.

I should have clarified that.

Brick usually gives us a decent bit of depth anyways, and so we didn't think that we needed to go above and beyond there.

And then again, the reasoning behind West Main and the West facade, that's kind of where a lot of the pedestrian

And it looks like there aren't any conditions where you're turning a corner and you're switching from one type to another.

No, it's always separated with brick, that's correct.

I guess I have one other question.

I was noticing on the top of the southeast corner, which is probably the most visible corner, you know, the one that's facing out of the tower.

Yeah, there you go.

Up top?

Up here?

Yeah.

Yes.

This is an amenity space up at the top of the building.

And with the size window and the configuration that we're doing there, we couldn't do that with vinyl.

Vinyl still has some limitations on size of window and all of that.

So we would still have.

Now, by the time we work through this, I would imagine we would actually have

Thicken mullions, it wouldn't be like this repetitive two inch or three inch mullion all the way through.

We would probably just for design loads and wind loads and just for full transparency, I think when we advance it some, there's going to be some thicken mullions.

So this would be a series of storefront windows, not one continuous storefront, but we're talking about a very limited gap between them.

enough to get a stud so that you can brace it so from a design pressure standpoint you're not designing for this really long window.

Along the entire public realm that would be Storefront.

It would be Storefront.

In this case here we were seeing that darker band.

That's actually the floor level in there and so that will provide support for that.

We couldn't do 15, 16 feet tall storefronts.

You tend to be limited to like 10, 10 and a half feet, 11 max depending on manufacturers.

And so with this one, it would be separated.

And at the lobby where we have the double height, there's gonna be a steel frame so that we can split the vertical span into two storefront windows.

That would be a metal, that would be a slab cover.

It might be some manufacturers offer that slab cover or kind of a blank panel that matches exactly what

The intent here is to make the bottom storefront and the top storefront feel like they're part of an assembly.

So it's not broken with some other material in between.

We use YKK as basis of design, but for the same reasons that Whitney had mentioned, we tend to keep it open from a spec standpoint.

We just kind of do the performance spec.

YKK, I believe they do offer that cover.

For this project here, there's going to be, just from an energy standpoint, whether we have to do rigid insulation and how we're probably going to do an energy model to understand that better.

Great.

We'll go to questions on the landscape since that was first brought up.

So I apologize in advance.

I'm at my first BAR meeting, so I might say or do things out of order.

Yes, I'll try to stick to questions.

It's hard to contextualize some questions without commenting.

So I think the question was raised about what is the memory walk.

I would love a little history on what that is.

I guess, sorry, I'm going to step in.

We're not judging the memory walk this evening.

I am happy to talk through the history.

Well, no, I'm happy to move on.

The question, I think, related to that, though, is in the comment last month in the conversation, you mentioned, I listened to it on YouTube, the intention to make more out of this space in the front of the building so that that would extend to the front.

And then you also talked about a dedicated space between the buildings, between the West Haven and.

So I guess I'm not, again, I'm not

Yeah.

But we do need to.

Whatever is there, we need to approve something.

If we make an approval tonight, we have to assume that if everything goes bad and you guys don't work with the neighborhood, what's in these drawings, we're OK with being paid.

That's right.

I agree.

So we would encourage Jen if she sees things that are missing, then.

I would ask that we look at it.

Ignore the memory walk.

I'm just going to give you.

Consider it's all public.

So the area in the front is all public?

Yes.

Everything at the ground level is public.

The furnishings that are shown on Main Street are for everybody?

We cannot, and this was a question that was asked by CHRA.

So just for clarity, the gray area where it shows 22 feet, that is a true dry vial.

And to the deck, the area in green with the festoon lighting that's up above, that is a service alley for two things.

You have to be able to, legally, we have to provide access for two things.

And that is our utility equipment that's right behind the building in terms of transformers,

and then also to the cell tower.

That is number five on this.

That is not a part of our property.

It is outside of our property line and it will remain.

So vehicles are running through there.

There will be bollards that are movable.

You cannot put permanent furnishings as relates also fire access.

That's how they're getting back there.

So you cannot have any permanent furnishings that would obstruct the fire department's ability

to services from a safety standpoint and from vehicles being able to access the other side.

The intent if you, well maybe I have control to do that.

So now the area where there's a trellis, that is a built in.

It is representative if there are any comments around the look or the placement.

Now it's there because it clears the turn.

in order to get to the transformers that are there and to get to the cell tower.

But that is the intent for the built-in space that serves as a transition from those stairs, the monumental stairs that we are aligning directly with.

And maybe it would be good to go to the site plan to help her understand the context of this.

So this shows you how the outdoor space is connecting directly between the two newly proposed West Haven projects.

This is their new plan, not how it exists today.

So it is aligned, and the intent is where the blue double-sided arrow is there.

OK. A lot of the things you just mentioned are not indicated at all.

In apologies, this was all presented in the last meeting.

So we didn't include it, not to evade it, but because I was under the impression that we just didn't know.

that there was going to be a new member.

So again, our intent is not to evade or not provide information.

Okay, thank you.

Yeah, as he said, he was picking up kind of where he left off last month, but it is in the package.

There is lighting, but there's no festoon lighting, there's no bollards, there's no trellis, and there's no monumental stairs.

The monumental stairs are not on our property.

And the lighting, no we don't have a spec and again this is where it gets really hard.

We specifically discussed not getting into detail.

The only reason I mentioned festoon lighting is because the strings are overhead.

I was just mentioning that for reference to describe where the area is.

Day in Day Out is going to be used for parking up to the parking entry.

The section beyond that where we've got the pavement patterns and the greenery, that's going to be ex-favor.

We do need to design it to obviously withstand fire access and also access to the cell tower and in

Right and what we've talked about with the community is even though we cannot do built-ins there

I can provide the emails where we responded in writing saying that we are happy to do programming subject to the fire departments.

So if we wanted to have food trucks in there, if we wanted to have an art show, a market, those are all things so long as it is temporary and removable that are all open in discussion and again happy to provide those communications.

Okay, I'll keep going.

Is the walk that is shown there, is that intended to be accessible?

Okay.

The eight foot walk on the west end of the property?

Yes.

Yes.

Even though it's coming up the hill from West Haven?

I think that's part of the civil engineering package that is currently being reviewed.

It's going to be underground detention anyway so that's a part of the site plan approval process, not necessarily.

That's right.

It's sort of out of view.

So it's not as, you know, the downspouts, if there were exterior downspouts, those would be under our purview.

Or if they had a right guard, they'd have a retention pod.

Yeah.

Yeah.

OK.

I just wanted to see what the intention was there.

Absolutely.

So, I mean, it's still relevant.

Then I guess my next question is about archaeology.

We've taken care of that, and we will adhere to all of the requirements.

The most that we can do is start construction.

And if something is found, then we'll stop construction.

But as it relates to the design of the building,

It isn't very common, particularly on a site like this that hasn't been developed, to require a phase one examination.

Spaced test pits, but as much as anything it's an in-depth document and record evaluation by an archeologist.

But if they deem necessary to do any sort of test pits, they might.

But it does not become an archeological site.

And we don't, unlike where we had

The court's expansion project where we had documentation of burials.

None are suspected here, or at least not a record indicating burials here.

So yeah, phase one would be appropriate, and you could use language that we used in the, for the MARC, for the 218 West Market, simply to,

That is completed already.

City staff?

What's that?

Providing two staff.

Sorry.

And on the landscape discussion, I handed Carl a suggestion and he passed it down.

Fair enough, fair enough.

I have a question.

Yes.

We don't normally talk about the interior of the building, but I think this directly affects the exterior.

Like how are people bringing their trash down?

Oh, there's chutes.

So you're not, you don't come down.

You're going to drop it in your chute in each floor.

No, no, no.

And that will have like weekly pickup from the truck probably?

Yeah, don't know that yet.

I think that's to be worked through with the city.

We have started those discussions.

Yes, so the doors that we're going to have in the termination room at the ground level, in the trash room, is going to be an overhead door so that when the bins are getting empty, they're pulled out.

We're back here when that overhead door closes.

Usually we'd have a regular man door in there as well, just because the maintenance wouldn't want to open the overhead door every time just to get in and out of the door.

But those would be possibly bad.

That could be designed to be facing the parking.

We've shown one door currently in that design that we've done with the palesters and the brick detailing.

There's one door there.

I wanted to get back to the solar study and the shade analysis, where you have shown the noon

I think it would be helpful to show 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. on those same dates and I think that that would help determine what plantings are survivable or thriving in that and also

I think that's a good point and follow up with that.

I was just curious about the trees that were shown and the shrubs.

Were those selected by, what was the selection process for those?

Were they done by your group or was Water Street involved?

You mentioned Water Street and having been involved in some of the planning at some point.

Yeah, so I'm happy to respond.

I mean, this was done by our in-house landscape group early on as we were starting to kind of advance on the design and leading up to the submission that we made to come and meet with you in May.

We have not had any dialogue with Water Street since our August meeting, just for clarity.

Is there a reason why you haven't engaged with them yet?

Yes, because it's a larger part of a community benefits agreement, and it was a part of maybe about 200 line items that I was presented with.

And because I have not had the opportunity to sit with West Haven specifically, because that's kind of who we interact with the most, there hasn't been an opportunity to engage in that dialogue.

So I don't necessarily want to have conversations with Water Street.

Do you know if the plants that are shown on this plan adhere to the city's plant, what is it, recommendations, what's the right word?

If not, if there is a preference on the type of plants that go back there, specifically looking at, we don't have any preconceived notions of what goes back there.

No, she's confirming.

It's a sample plant pattern.

Well, I've got a follow up question on that based on the June 4th letter to Timmons from the city planner.

I mean, it sounds like

You know, there are still some issues with streetscape standards, green space, tree requirements, selections.

These are all reasons for denial, and that they're looking for a resubmission.

And my question to you is, is that resubmission going to change the site plan that we're looking at?

Yeah, it's what I said earlier.

Rolling up the dice, if you will.

The applicant, if something changes, something substantive, significant, then we have to weigh whether or not if that's necessary to get an approved site plan.

And that's why I made the note.

I'm digging for my staff report.

So basically this would just come back to us?

Well, it's possible.

And that's what I said.

Again, to make clear that a development plan is not the equivalent of a site plan.

So acknowledge that up front.

And if what's approved

For a COA, presumably if that occurs, then that must be reflected with what's on a development plan.

And development plans now are requiring elevations and a level of information which, as I said, I think it's

It's more information.

You should really be looking at this.

If I were an applicant, I'd be looking at my site plan, because I want to make sure I know where everything is going to go and where everything will fit.

And then I make sure the building fits within that.

So the risk here is the developers.

And if you all approve the design as presented, and later on it

And we tried to do our best here in working with staff.

We went ahead, we were in a site plan process before, and that's our intent to continue with the site plan process.

We switched to the development process for the process of transparency here so that we could outline

What doesn't match, but that is typically a part of the process.

We're in our first round.

You're always going to have comments.

You're always going to have comments in the first round.

And that's simply where we are.

It's a little tough to ask the development community to go all the way through to construction documents to get your site plan without knowing if BAR supports you.

I appreciate that.

I completely understand and that's where again I'm in a bit of a hard

When it comes to landscaping as well because it's all a part of the community dialogue and the last thing I want is to design this in a silo and do kind of what the community thinks I'm doing so what I'm trying to tell you is if there are specific we are happy to put on there anything that's on the list of requirements no matter what we can't get a permit without site plan.

approval.

You can't build this without getting to a site plan approval.

So you guys have comfort that something from the city's list of requirements is going to be there.

That comfort is inherent because we can't build it without doing that.

I have a question for Carl or staff perhaps.

The planning requirements for this site, would that just be along the street, right along Main Street?

The tree canopy is the whole thing.

The whole site.

There's streetscape requirements, and then there's a tree canopy for the whole site.

Yeah, yeah.

So they will be looking.

If I can clarify something.

Kate, can you just go to that?

One of those conceptual landscape plan views that they have.

Fortunately in my resume is many years in construction so I do have a bit of a unique view when things change on a project site.

In their submittal just one of the landscaping views.

And so what I want to make clear to everyone, and not only to you all and the applicant, but to the public record, because it has happened where buildings get tweaked.

Where there's a door might become a window, or where there's a window might have to be shifted because a mechanical room wall has to be built.

So if at some point in the future

You know, they come back and say, these transformers, or whatever they are, are over here, or this wall is, this little inset isn't there, this wall continues.

I'm probably going to work with them on that.

I don't sit down and say, no, you said this thing was going to be

working and not.

You said this thing's going to be 12 feet, 6 inches.

It better be 12 feet, 6 inches and not 12 feet, 8 inches.

You all are looking at this at a step back level from construction drawings, as you've said.

And when projects of this scale, when they go in and figure out where the transformers are going to go, figure out where the mechanical system's going to go,

Things move around a little bit and I allow myself the freedom to work with the applicant.

Now if they came in and where this plaza in the front is suddenly, you know, infilled and the storefronts are only on the two ends, we're going to come have a conversation.

So I just want to make that clear to everyone out there that when we talk about what tweaks may occur,

A landscape plan is required for the site plan and certainly a more robust landscape plan than what you're seeing here, something that's detailed, something that meets the tree canopy requirements.

With our new ordinance there's a lot more specificity in that that they have to meet.

So that's why I say I'm okay with this because I know, for example, the lighting is addressed in our code.

They can't put bright lights with a lot of glare, and I put in some conditions that address the parking lot.

An option, and James, if I'm jumping ahead on my question, but as far as the landscape goes,

If absolutely necessary, I could omit the landscaping from this COA.

It's very different from it.

I know we don't do incremental COAs, and that means we don't say, oh, I like the height, massing, and scale.

We approve it, come back later with the design.

The landscape, and what I'm speaking in terms of is the plantings, is a distinct piece that's separable from the design of this building.

And if that's a, we want clarification on what is planted, particularly on that north boundary.

I see no problem with if you were to approve a COA for the design, omitting the landscaping plan requiring that the come back for a COA.

And that would be a separate application.

It would be something later.

It would be a COA specifically for the plantings or for whatever element of the landscape that you chose.

I'm very comfortable with that if it's a means to an end.

I also, as what I shared with James, is there's a section of the code that refers to the type of screening between areas of different zoning.

We don't have that here, so there's not a required type of landscape screening, but the code does lay out a series of, you see there, transition screen high, number two.

So it would be helpful if you all are asking, maybe we're not, I don't know what is the best species to put there, or what sequence of plantings to put there, but if there's an intent that we can establish, and if it's an intent we can establish through reference to these

and the code.

So you all don't have the authority to say you have to meet the code, but you certainly have the purview to say, hey, here's a really good example in the code of development.

Let's refer to that.

And a quick question.

They can find a species that will grow back there.

There are trees growing on the north side of the flats that are living there.

And I do think you're hitting on a really good point.

I want to make sure I'm saying, I'm not necessarily asking for a specific species.

But what I'm saying, what we are happy to commit to is the bullet point list that Jeff put up earlier.

If we want to add a bullet point that says you must have plantings at 2 feet, 4 feet, 6 feet, 12 feet, or a plethora thereof,

I'm happy to add that as a kind of option and I'm happy to outline exactly where that needs to be within the plan.

It's trying to keep us from going down that path of designing this space, knowing that tree canopy and coverage is a requirement of the code, but using our code to express an intent.

The goal back there is to achieve X.

I think if you all were to say, I mean if they came back and said we can't do this because of the height of our building, we can't meet the tree canopy requirements, then they have avenues to request

A remedy to that.

Now, the result may be, well, you all aren't providing the screening type to BAR asked for, then we can have a conversation about that.

But this is a, I'm trying to think of a means to move forward.

And if I can just sidestep for a second, it's part of why

At the end of the staff report, I took the guidelines and Carl sees this because I do it for the entrance corridor, I use a spreadsheet of all of their guidelines and I say yes, no, here's what's happened, here's what applies.

I did that here and it's unusual, but it's to, this is a lot of a discussion we've been having internally is, you know, what are the guidelines and, you know, and what are VARs purview?

And an explanation that's helpful is,

Our guidelines don't say that you have to provide building sections of a level of detail.

A lot of these are because

It helps when we have to review the building permit that the drawings are realizing what's shown in the renderings and elevations that you all have looked at.

So I appreciate there are times when we ask for more detail than maybe the guidelines suggest we ask for.

But there's also places where the guidelines are fairly general.

I'm just trying to illustrate that by adding it here.

So I think, again, landscaping, the intent back there is to create screening, what type of screening I think you can express by reference to the ordinance.

types of trees and spacing and what ultimately that landscaping will be back there.

If you want to see that in specificity then you can omit that from the COA and say that it comes back.

And then the last thing I would say is that there is, you know, Breck and I talk a lot about

Landscape Architecture and how it fits into the BAR process.

And I think there's that distinction between a designed landscape where someone is achieving something with the terraced and plants and everything versus providing the trees as required by code.

So it's sort of that if this were intended as this landscape that 100 years from now is

Lawrence Halperin landscape that's, you know, available for the National Register or is this, you know, what are the trees necessary to provide shade and provide buffer.

So that, I think, that distinction applies here.

But I think this is a vernacular landscape.

I mean, this is a cultural landscape.

Probably since the 1960s, this has been a site where the community has accessed West Main Street.

That's where I probably do need to speak to the history.

So kind of taking a step back to about a year ago.

So the memory walk was on the other side of the building.

And there was a detailed landscape plan designed by Water Street.

And the community, understandably so, wanted a direct connection to Main Street.

At that point, their location of the walkway was also a little closer to ours, but it still jogged.

So they just wanted a street shop.

So in between August and today, Westhaven reimagined their plans not to necessarily align with anything, just conditions on their site.

and it moved to where it is now.

In response to that, we relocated ours to align with it so that we could provide that direct straight access and we're even providing, we've already talked to fire, we're even providing the walkway all the way across Main Street to the southern side so that there's safe ADA access with a signalized crosswalk to get to the bus stop.

With that, however, there's about six feet of topo

That doesn't show in the plans running from our driveway all the way to the bridge.

Remember, bridge connection is right there.

There's only one place that the city will allow us to access our garage and it's right there.

So if we want the direct connection to align with West Haven per the community, not us, per the community, then how do you fit all of that within there?

So there are a lot of layers to this.

It's not meant to be an eight-foot sidewalk.

And that's why we're trying to figure out ways to wrap it all.

The intent is that it wraps all the way around the building.

And the reason that we can't get to specificity on the landscape plans is because, again,

The West Haven plans show improvements on our property line and we want to be able to do that.

That's the right thing to do.

We want that connection to happen and I know we're focused on the historic district here, not the relation to West Haven, right?

That needs to be remembered.

But the intent is that it's wrapping all the way around so we can't get into specificity of the landscaping without having that community meeting, which again was attempted to have twice by the time we got here.

Those meetings are biweekly.

Right, and I appreciate that.

I just want to say,

I totally understand what you're saying.

I just want to go on record that this is not just a planting plan.

We're not just looking at, you know... And we're not suggesting that.

Right.

I'm talking amongst ourselves.

I'm not saying a specific connection.

I'm just saying there is a connection to West Main Street from

There's no connection.

I want to make sure that's clear.

There is no connection right now.

There's people that walk across.

But there is no connection.

Like there's an experiential connection that people make a walk, they walk from Westhaven.

I see the, I mean I've seen the paths of some people walking.

Understood.

Understood.

So I think what we talked about earlier

That level of community involvement hasn't happened yet for whatever reasons.

And so that flushed out full design isn't what we're looking at tonight.

Right.

So either we're going to have to grapple with that in a few minutes.

I think I want to recognize we're still in our questions phase.

So if we can table that for a little bit and then we'll come back to it, I think that'd be helpful.

Talk about any other questions on, we've talked landscape, we've talked windows, details, questions from BAR.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I want to go to... We're still in questions.

Okay, so start simple.

Let's do materials.

I'm talking about 5%.

There you go.

Thank you.

So you're going to use the James Hardy with the finish that comes with it.

That is the intent.

In some markets, we've found that painting the hardy is kind of the way that it's done in these specific markets.

Our preference is always to find a color.

If it works with the palette, they have limited colors, but it has expanded over the years.

Our preference is to find something that is

And I think this is me just CYA or whatever, covering my own ass, but sorry.

You're going to use the smooth finish, not the wood grain?

That's correct.

OK. All right.

That was my question on the Hardy panel.

Are there other questions on the Hardy panel before I leave the time?

Those are the questions I want to ask.

And these are the proposed colors?

Yeah.

Do you guys want to see these again?

Those are four colors in here.

We only have three on the building as it stands currently.

So we have the white and the dark.

These are kind of the accents.

And I think the lighter of the two grays is what we would use as the mid-gray.

So this one would be our darker, right?

I think those two are pretty similar.

One's a little gray, one's a little green, but we get it.

There's a dark, there's a light gray, and then white.

That's right.

And then for the brick, remind us

The brick is just one color currently that we've got proposing.

These are just alternatives that we're weighing in, just proximity to the site where it's coming from.

Going back to the notes that Zoe gave you guys.

Modifications, variances and waivers that they are expecting you guys to address and I'm just, these are not gotcha questions, these are more of just me trying to help, trying to understand the building better.

So, the requirements of the streetscape, I think I understood that, is it just where the trees are relative to the sidewalk, is that the question?

And do you guys, if you narrowed in on,

In our packet, we're seeing the trees against the street.

I think there's a screenshot somewhere in here of a site plan that shows the sidewalk between the trees and the street.

That's correct.

That has to go with the topo that we're working with.

We're trying to get that plaza obviously as level as it can be against the building, provide these entry points as much as we can.

There is a slope, a six foot slope from one end to another and by doing it, by having the landscaping between the internal sidewalk and the outer sidewalk we're able to maneuver the grades a little bit better and provide stepping between the internal sidewalk and the external sidewalk that's working a little bit better.

I believe across the street, the building across the street from the standard had that same condition.

It could be that the standard has the same outside.

So what we're voting on tonight would be those trees moving inward is what you're telling me?

That's correct.

Okay.

I was going to say this may be a timing issue because we're moving trying to get the development plans kind of reviewed at the same time because I didn't even

Realize.

I'm just making sure when we make a vote tonight, we know what we're doing.

Completely, completely agree.

I guess active depth is always an issue.

Where do we have the plans on that one?

Where we're not meeting the active height, it's where we have the amenities stacked.

So where we've got the lobby, where we have this double height space, this planned, the next planned, we don't have issues there.

As soon as we get into the amenities, because of the way the sidewalk is working, we're actually kind of depressed once we get past these steps.

It's halfway in between so you still see it, it just doesn't come all the way to the window line to

to count.

So you still see that second mezzanine level up there.

So you still have the activity.

So from the pedestrian experience, we're still seeing kind of double-height spaces.

It's active use.

So active use, yeah.

It's just two floors instead of one tall floor.

OK, and I understand the setback and the entrances.

And the intent of the plaza is to serve as an extension of the Memorial Walk, not a plaza for our residents per se.

It's because I actually felt the same way in terms of having this memory walk to the left that I wanted to bring it to the front of the building to make sure it was at the forefront.

So the intent is that you have your art there, you have your signage, and that it's celebrated front and center.

Any other questions on zoning?

So just to clarify, I was trying to find in the staff report where the image was that somebody referenced the trees along the street edge go away?

They shift.

They shift towards the steps.

The building?

So if you look at this right here, Mohammed, tell me if I'm wrong.

The rectangles are squares down at the bottom.

Those go away.

And there's already planters in the planting boxes there.

But that's the idea.

You shift up, and then you've got the sidewalk against the curve.

And then you've got the landscaping strip with the steps that connect between the two sidewalks.

And then you've got the plaza.

But from a variance perspective, if that's not approved, then this is the plan we have to build.

Is that right?

That's correct.

Here we go.

So you're kind of looking at it both ways.

If we don't get approval for the variance, this is what gets built.

If we do get approval from the variance during the site plan process, the rectangle's at the bottoms.

Go away.

I can't fully answer that unless you can.

We do have the sidewalks internal on the plaza and the sidewalk on the outside because at some point the closer we get to the bridge the more that elevation change occurs.

If we have them right against each other it makes that connection between the two a little bit more difficult and so you would have to work your way to the southwest corner to get closer to being level and so separating them

allows that landscape buffer to function as that zone that we can use to step up and down between the two sidewalks.

So it improves the connection between the outer sidewalk and the plaza by having the landscape zone in there to be able to grade it a little bit differently and give us enough room to be able to step between the two when we need more than a couple of steps.

By the time we get to the front door on the southwest corner,

The sidewalks are fairly close to being level.

It's the bridge side.

Now we've actually improved the condition with the plaza stepping up the way it is, but there's still great differences to be worked out between the plaza and the sidewalk.

Because the sidewalk has to be maintained as an accessible connection all along with frontage.

And the street elevation is not changing, so we don't have any control over

That's correct.

That's correct, that's correct.

Because we have guardrails at the bridge, there's no connection to that sidewalk anyway, the elevation is different.

That's how we're kind of working.

Thank you.

OK. Can I pick your questions?

Sure.

Sorry.

Parking screens.

So the north side on the elevation, it looks like we're, I was expecting to see screens.

It says textured brick.

Is that correct?

It's just walls.

We've actually made that change between the presentation in May and this one.

Part of that is there was some feedback, some comments about thinking through how are we screening the lights from the parking from bleeding outside, what happens to headlights.

Based on the redesign over the last few months, we have lost our ability to do natural ventilation anyways.

And so we were not meeting these openings to be able to get ventilation in the deck.

So we figured if that's an issue and there is a concern there, and we know we understand that it's going to be residential on the north side of us, we've decided to block, take out the openings.

And instead, we didn't want to have a flat brick wall.

That makes that easy.

And I guess you've got a middle parking screen example that just looks like it's a wire grid.