Board of Architectural Review   7/16/2019

Welcome to the regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review.

So after presentations by the staff and the applicant, members of the public are allowed two opportunities to speak.

Please identify yourself and give your current address after you're finished speaking if you can just sign in on the form so that we have accurate information in the minutes.

I'll first ask for questions from the public and then from the board and then comments from the questions and comments from the board.

So in each instance the members of the public have three minutes to either ask a question during questions or make comments during comments but just please limit your questions and comments to things that are in the BAR's jurisdiction which is basically the outside of a building.

and the site.

After the BAR's discussion and before the vote, the applicant will be allowed up to three minutes to respond for the purposes of clarification and thank you for participating.

So we'll start with matters from the public that are not on the agenda.

Okay, next we have the consent agenda and the first item on the consent agenda is the June 18th regular meeting minutes.

The next item is a certificate of appropriateness application at 301 East Jefferson Street for concrete bench installation.

I move to pass the consent agenda.

All in favor?

Aye.

And none opposed?

All right, so those items are all passed.

And you're good to go.

Okay, next we'll move on to new items.

Good evening, this is a certificate of appropriateness for 150 Chancellor Street.

It's a building constructed around 1910.

It's colonial, revival, brick dwelling.

It is a contributing structure within the corner ADC district.

The three-story house has stylistic details, including a prominent boxed cornice with modillion blocks and freeze board.

The house also features a colonial, revival, dual Doric column porch.

And it's been serving as a rooming house originally.

and in 1979 a sorority purchased it and continues to be used by the sorority.

This is a request to replace the existing historic cornice and

Mr. Serafin and I were discussing earlier the classical definitions of cornice and so this is I believe it's a seven-piece cornice, the crown, fascia, soffit, the cornice itself, freeze, board, bed mold, and the medilions.

So thinking those in a

A composite of the different parts.

So the request is to replace that using new composite materials and the intent is because of concern about the deterioration of material over long time.

I cannot speak tonight.

Long terms they wanted to, for maintenance purposes, go with some sort of an artificial material.

And I just want to note in the application referred to repair and replacement, however, the indication seems to be that this is about replacing the elements that you see there.

So applicant request is to replace all of the painted wood elements, the crown, fascia, soffit, cornice, frieze, bed mold, and medilions.

The submittal provides information only on the proposed medilion, which is a corporal dental of composite material.

Last week I contacted the applicant and said that the information provided was not adequate to represent what was existing and to what extent the new would be, the new would replicate or be similar to the existing.

I think I shared with you all the sketch that I made and I understand that, well hopefully the applicant will have some additional information to add tonight.

If the information is not provided and if it's not adequate to determine, again, what's there and what the new would look like, staff's recommending a deferral of this request.

If the information is provided and the BAR wishes to take action on the request, staff recommends that the following be taken into consideration during discussion.

One, will the new material suitably replicate or be similar to the existing in both dimension and design?

The design guidelines recommend that any replacement be of a light design.

Next, do the existing conditions warrant removal and replacement of the entire cornice?

So far we've only seen one photograph of that cornice, it's the top one there.

The applicant's intent is to increase the lifespan and reduce maintenance of the cornice.

The design guidelines recommend repair over replacement.

And this building is three and a half stories on the front, taller on the rear and side.

So arguably the height does create difficulties.

for routine maintenance.

And finally, is the use of composite material appropriate?

The design guidelines do not recommend against their use.

In fact, back in 2017, you all approved the fraternity over on Madison Lane.

You replicated an old Chippendale railing that had been lost.

contacted a company that matched it almost exactly, and so that was a good outcome.

However, the intent there was to restore a long-missing item, not to remove and replace the existing.

So there's some questions here that you all can address with the applicant, but that's what I have.

Any questions?

I didn't realize that I didn't send an accurate picture.

You can see the cracks in it up there, but there's actually where the, well, you can see on the corner of that one, on the right corner of the house, that's a hole, and everywhere that the dome spouts are coming out, there's holes in the soffit.

This is the, you call it a medallion?

This is the old medallion and you can see that this stuff seriously needs to be replaced.

Part of the questions that Mr. Warner had brought to us was replicating this exactly.

My contractor will answer a lot.

I'm Steve with Century Exteriors, by the way.

And when we first came out here and looked at the resident here, and as you can see, I mean, this is rotted all the way through.

These are boards that you just cannot find at any store anymore.

I mean, even in some of the retail stores like Lowe's or Home Depot, you cannot even find this.

What they do make nowadays are, they'll make a polyurethane products, which is pretty much microcellular foam that they make and mold products with.

As I was saying, you cannot find these boards anywhere.

So they're making now what they call polyurethane products.

I just bought one sample of now.

Yes, it's not the same size, but I do have a book that has many, many different sizes that they make.

It's a microcellular product.

It's foam, so basically when it's molded,

It stays and keeps the form forever.

It has a lifetime warranty on every one of these blocks.

Um, so it's not, it'll never rot on the home.

Um, termites cannot even, you know, take advantage cannot repels termite.

Infestation as well too.

Also, as we were looking at this, there's soffit, as you can see, that's cracked on the whole home here.

And they do make composite, which is pretty much what they call cellular composite boards in many different sizes that we can actually put on this home.

And as far as having ventilation, as you can see, that are pretty much pre-drilled into the wood, we can do the same thing as well and put the same vented caps on them, like it shows on the picture up there as well too.

So basically, we're just trying to get this home maintenance-free, the cost of them having to continue painting this, the wood that they're painting is already rotted.

I would like to make one correction to Mr. Warner.

On the backside of our house, it's five stories tall.

The house is actually five stories.

So it is very difficult to find contractors that have equipment that can go that high.

And we cannot get lifts into that area, front of the house, back of the house, or sides of the house.

Well, actually the driveway side you can probably get one in.

which is part of the reason why we're trying to make this as maintenance free as possible and using the composite since it does look like wood.

It looks like wood, it's just maintenance free.

The medillions, I've heard four different names for this thing.

I would like to try, we would like to try to find something that is just really really close to it without having to have these custom fabricated.

We're really kind of pushed for time here.

The girls come back August 24th and they cannot do this work with the girls there because they have to scaffold the whole house.

This company is out of Lynchburg.

I tried to find someone locally.

I could not find anyone locally that could do it for less than $78,000 because they had to rent scaffolding and this company has their own scaffolding.

So it was just much more cost effective to go out of Charlottesville to do this.

But there again, we're running really short on time.

And if we could get I had Mr. Warner just handed out, we have

I know on the cornice molding and things like that that are on the facial board, as you can see that they do make

But anyway basically that is just we're we're asking for

the ability to use the composite material to help us with the maintenance.

Like I said, since it's hard, it was almost impossible to find somebody in Charlottesville that could do this work.

Cost effective.

I mean, y'all know better than anybody how expensive it is to maintain historic structures.

And I and I've been in front of most of you all enough to know that I do try my best to try to keep things original because I do respect and absolutely love the structure of the history, the historical integrity of the house.

But y'all know, too, that a lot of times I've had to come in and ask for compromises with you guys to to try to

Okay.

Have you looked at the gutters at all?

The gutters were replaced five years, six

I think a lot of the intense amount of rain we had last July seriously caused the wood to just really start deteriorating more.

I'm hoping and praying, praying, praying that the gutters are not

going to be a factor in this.

They are new.

The downspouts, well, actually the downspouts were, I take that back.

They were put on the first year I was there.

They did the gutters and the downspouts.

They did the whole thing, yes sir.

We do have some of the soldiers, actually you can see some of the soldiers in the top photograph right above the window have poked out and I have been trying to get that repaired.

There again it is just so far up and we can't get scaffolding in the front of the house because of the power lines.

The back of the house, we have a patio back there with Italian travertine that won't hold the weight of a lift and they can put scaffolding back there though and then this side of the house is

I think y'all are scaffolding on that side too.

The front of the house and then the other side.

So they're gonna basically have to scaffold the entire house except for right across the front.

I think they're even gonna partially scaffold that off the deck.

But no, I've had several masonry companies come out and look at that.

And they're just, man, it's so high up there.

Yeah.

Maybe I could find some off duty firemen with a ladder truck.

I have a question.

How representative is this of all of the pieces up there?

Yes, sir.

Well, to be honest with you, I didn't know that was that bad.

And the reason it's all broken up is because I crawled out the window and knocked it off with a hammer so I could show y'all exactly.

So y'all would have a hand, because I know y'all like to think things.

And I got out and knocked it off with a hammer.

Oh, no, I was just I know I just Yeah, please strike that from anything that you're recording so national never hears it and

My crew will have them.

They'll have a quick one to do it.

Oh, yes.

Well, I don't know how long they've been up there, but they've been painted over so many times, they're actually pretty much really useless.

So those will be replaced with new ones, too, which, like you said, to drill through that composite like that,

The wood, it won't rot around where the cracks, it won't rot out from where the wood's been cut, you know, the hole's been cut through the wood and put in the vents.

It would be the same.

It would be the...

Yeah, it's really hard to tell from the photos.

From the photos, the ones, the brackets look like they're in pretty good shape.

There are quite a few that you can see some of them are crapping.

I actually had photos on my phone, but I walked out of the house and left my phone at home since I wasn't going to bring it into the meeting anyway.

So I'm sorry.

Oh, but I promise they are.

That whole section up there is just an even the actually the dormers are probably going to need to have some work done to them next year because they're starting to fall apart too, but I'm not going there this year.

I'm trying to find some.

I think this is somewhere here.

So the material you're proposing is a five-pond?

Yes, this one right here.

It's definitely at this point helpful.

It looks like it's got a cord, and there's something in between, and another piece of ground.

Is that like a bomb with a gun or something?

Yes, sir.

Yeah, I'm a little surprised.

We are two.

Somebody said, hey, I could do a really cool thing on the bottom of your head.

Plus the way it was nailed.

So are we trying to figure out what's existing there?

It looks like there's some sort of a maybe an inch and a half board in the soffit and then a gap and then continuation of the soffit.

It looks like it's a vent line.

And is your plan to recreate the vent line?

Okay, why don't we move on to comments and start with comments from the public.

Okay comments from the board.

While everybody's kind of gathering their thoughts, I just thought I would read the pertinent guidelines that we're supposed to be considering.

So for rehabilitation regarding the cornice, it says

Keep the cornice well sealed and anchored and maintain the gutter system and flashing.

Repair rather than replace the cornice.

Do not remove elements of the original composition such as brackets or blocks without replacing them with new ones of a light design.

Match materials, decorative details and profiles of the existing original cornice design when making the players.

and do not replace the original coordinates with the new one that conveys a different period, style, or theme from this building, which I understand that's not the intention.

Melanie, if I could also add, our guidelines also reference the Secretary of the Interior standards and

In their rehabilitation guidelines, their recommended action in this case is either repairing of course or if required, repairing a deteriorated wood feature, wood siding.

on a primary or other highly visible elevation with a new matching wood feature.

Tracey, what year did you all replace the windows?

That was my first year here too so that would have been during the summer five years ago, five to six years ago.

Okay.

Thank you for that by the way.

No, there was really nothing they could do to make those four windows work any better.

We have one of the windows on the third floor actually works okay, but all the rest of them, they just stay shut.

But I decided we needed some better insulation in there and we've got custom interior windows coming for the front of the house so we'll still get the storm window but they won't be seen in the front of the house.

So we do have precedent for using composite materials and we do say you know use it high up or you can't touch it which this is certainly high up or you know someone can't mess with it.

I've got a couple concerns though with so

I am really worried about your gutters.

Y'all have now made me concerned about my gutters.

So I would be really worried that you would do this work and you'd be covering up a much bigger problem, which might be probably the reason that you said the soldier courses are coming out.

I mean, perhaps there's water getting into the wall.

So I know you're on a tight timeline and a tight budget.

If I were to approve this, I think what I would prefer you did is, one, make sure the gutters are right.

Right.

I'm actually going to take care of that tomorrow.

I just did a historic in Roanoke, Virginia, where we're replacing the entire gutter lining in there, replacing the round downspouts in the hidden gutter system like she has in there.

There's no problem at all.

The other thought is just that you, so our guidelines do say match materials, details, profiles.

Some of these are sort of close, but not really.

I would much prefer if you were to replace all of it that you

somehow got someone to measure what's there, find out what's there, and then replicate it.

As soon as the girls move out.

So I mean, I recognize paint can hide an awful lot of rot

I sympathize with the idea that you don't want to be up there painting every 10 years or whenever.

I mean, yeah.

And the other thing I'd just be really curious to know is what's really going on with the venting situation.

Because what it might just be is that the gutters are fine.

And all it's doing is driving moisture from a blow up into the, that's why it's all rotting.

So everything's fine on top.

I think there's some technical research to do there because there's got to be a reason, particularly if this has fallen off so quickly, that it was okay and then not okay.

But it did, but all four corners have, now the back right corner and the front right corner, they started deteriorating a little over a year ago.

I bought that to the attention of national you know we're going to have to have the soffits and stuff replaced and there was other things that took priority at the time and so now it was this year when I turned in for the record

I turn in my list of repairs before winter break to them, okay?

This is not my fault.

But they've been warned all year that this was coming.

But there again it was just waiting to get approval from their board and then finding a company that could do the work at a reasonable cost has been most of the delay.

We...

Okay, I was getting rid of our compromise, but that really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I was gonna say if we could just replace the soffit for right now, if that could just be approved and then we could just come back at once, we could get the

If you have a water problem or something up there, that's just not, you're just- Well, I'm going to now, I'm going to, this week, I'm going to either, they're going to have to come or I have to find somebody local that can, the roofing company that actually did the work six years ago, five years ago or whatever, get them to come back out and check those gutters.

It could also be the dormers or the stuff flashing around the chimneys.

Can I offer just an observation, just having the image up large like this?

From my experience, what I see in the corner on the right, the discoloration in the brick, clearly something is not getting to the downspout, clearly something's running down that corner.

and then the issue with the header over the window, the flat arch, I mean to see bricks move is generally a function of freestyle, you know, or maybe an earthquake in 2011, I don't know.

to see things move and shift like that.

Well, now those soldiers, excuse me, those soldiers, the window arch soldiers, whatever, those were poked out before, they've been poked out like that since before I got there.

That wasn't part of the... That's better news.

So what I was offering in this is that I do from my background see a lot more going on there that almost suggests scaffolding is necessary to diagnose what this is and that there may be time

for you.

I don't see up there, Michael, I don't know what you think.

I don't see up there a quick two-week project.

Well, if the issue is Philadelphia gutters, which it looks like it is, and maybe it's been replaced and it's just an old issue and it's not still leaking there, that's possible.

But if that was the issue, then once you open it up, it's very likely you're going to find that you don't have a surface to nail to.

So you may be replacing rafter tails at that point or sistering something on, just giving yourself a surface.

One thought, and obviously I'm not speaking for the whole board on this, but if you do find that the gutters are bad after you've replaced them five years ago,

I mean, you can probably put gutters up there, you know, you have the strap, you have to use straps to do it on a curved thumb, pieces like that, so it could be done, but to...

I don't want that done.

It's possible to fix the Philadelphia gutters, it's just complicated and most people do it wrong.

So, my point being that, is that

The Medellin matching them, and given what we learned from that company, it's probably not that difficult a process.

Other elements of the cornice may be fine in what's available.

And the thought being that there is a level of diagnosis necessary up there, which provides some timing.

So I just, you know, the possibility that this

I think there's a lot going on that has to be assessed so the idea of finding something quickly to put up there is probably not

The other thing is I'd be inclined to do some exploratory surgery anyway and cut out a piece of the soffit, find out with, you know, I think there's actually a bed mold of some sort right here and it's two pieces of wood.

And then you've got the modillion and then this looks like a pretty standard piece of crown up there.

Yes.

So, you know, I think most of that's pretty easily replicated.

That's correct.

But I would say when you do come in to finally get approved a replacement, I would like to see some close-up documentation and then also what you have selected to replace it so that we can decide, yeah, if that matches, that's close enough.

Other than just kind of like, oh, we'll get close.

In that case, I am going to see y'all later.

But thank you anyway very much for the input on everything and that is awesome.

One more quick note is you can look on Fife Lawn's website and they can do custom matching of things.

It just takes more time.

I figured that there was no way this was going to get done before the girls came back.

We've got other projects that are going on too that still need to be done and we'll just have to table this for now until we find out exactly what's causing the problem and that's, in all honesty, I didn't think of that.

But my theory with the old houses is every time I mean, I was expecting when that material came off to be replaced that there was going to be something found wrong because it is just my luck with the house and nothing is ever easy.

So it's always good for the applicants to request a deferral.

And what that does is gives you if you guys want to come back next meeting.

Great.

If you want to come back in December, that's fine, too.

So is that what I do?

I will move to accept the request for deferral.

All in favor?

May I just ask you, just to be clear, so the idea of an alternative material seems to be willing to entertain, the intent would be we want

to see something that matches.

And then it really is making that assessment of what's going on behind there.

Is that the recommendation on why we're sort of suggesting?

Find out what you have.

There's something bigger.

I'm good with that.

Yeah.

The material needs to match.

That's my preference as well.

And of course the board's composition like you guys come back in January maybe it's a different couple of votes here and there and maybe a different person's absent you know you never can tell but okay I'll cross my fingers

There are definitely holes in the solvent though.

Definitely holes there.

We want to see it repaired, well, I want to see it repaired rather than replaced, and you don't know how bad that is yet because no one has gotten up there to look at it.

So I would like to, this has been a building that's had its maintenance ignored for many, many years.

I know, but I'm not blaming anyone, but I also don't want to see the building

be destroyed of its historic character because people have ignored it and not done the proper maintenance to it.

And so until someone gets up there and is able to check the built-in gutter and see all the problems with it, the dormers, the Jack Arches over the windows, the cornice,

Until you have a condition survey of what kind of condition that roof and the cornice is, it's hard for me to stand back here and look at pictures or look 35 feet in the air and say, oh yeah, I'll replace all of it.

I can't do that.

I do understand that.

I do, I'm almost 100% sure that all the actual

What's the Y board that that's attached to?

Yes, I'm pretty sure the soffit's got to be replaced.

I agree, and I think people's assessment of the field tank gutter has been leaking for some time.

But I will definitely get an assessment done.

That's going to have to be done, and the national's just going to have to deal with it.

Not just for information, in the five years I've been there, they have put right out a million dollars into repairing this house.

There's a lot of work that's been done.

They're cost prohibitive to maintain.

Well, no, I'm talking just in the five years that I've been, that I have been here, the repairs that have been done and maintenance and upkeep and improvements and renovations have come to almost right out of a million dollars just in five years.

That's not the sprinkler system.

And we're getting ready to have to have the sprinkler pump compressor thing has

I've learned that, sir, thank you, and that's perfectly all right with me.

Although, I would love for you to come out to the Sigma Alpha Mu fraternity house and tell me what's historic about that concrete wall, because after the meeting last month about the wall at the Sammy House,

I stood out and I have looked at that concrete wall for as much as I can and I see nothing that's special about that wall.

Well, I mean, in all honesty, that's with the utmost respect.

I would actually like to know what makes it historic.

I mean, this interests me.

You don't want this job.

I love that house with all my heart and I've got a lot invested in it and I want the work done right.

I would like to get it done as maintenance-free as, you know, to make it more permanent so it's not work that has to keep getting done.

I'm gonna keep her up and I appreciate all the past compromises and stuff that y'all have given me and I greatly appreciate the information you've given me tonight so we're gonna defer y'all gonna have to put up with me again in the future but I

but we'll let y'all get on with business.

Okay, thank you.

Thank y'all.

I'm sitting out for this.

Actually made a note of

This is the kind of thing that when we get something, how do we how do we best prepare for the you know, what do we need to see?

What is it we really got to get at?

And Melanie and I being the owners of old houses, we appreciate finding things you didn't want to find.

Excuse me.

So this is a certificate of appropriateness request for 1801 Rugby Place.

It is within the Rugby Road

The house was constructed circa 1929.

It's a two-story colonial revival house.

It is a contributing structure within the Conservation District.

The request is to remove.

There's an existing rear deck.

and this is a corner lot so saying rear is but the front of the house faces Rugby Place and the side is along Rugby Road there so but this is the rear the north side to remove the existing deck that's there and construct a new 10 foot by 15 foot wood deck elevated on brick piers and with a stairway on the west side connecting to the side yard.

The elevation shows only the east elevation, but the north and west elevations are to be similar.

The bricks will match the existing on the house.

The decking will be eBay boards with painted wood skirtboard, and everything that needs to be painted is painted white.

The railing is to be a simple wood railing painted white, six by six cap posts.

These are dimensional, but I don't know if they'll actually be 2x4s.

But 2x4 bottom and top rails, 2x2 pickets, and a top rail that's capped 2x6.

Again, the stairs will be Ipe wood with painted trim rail stringers to match the deck.

And below the deck, the space in between the piers.

The intent is to have lattice paneling, and some of those panels will be hinged to operate as doors.

Again, Historic Conservation District, so somewhat of a different approach to the EDC district or to an IPP.

Staff finds that this request is appropriate and we recommend approval.

We'll start with questions from the public and questions from the board.

Okay, comments from the public?

I think it looks great.

You can barely see it.

The only time you can see it is down the driveway.

There's no conservation district guidelines that particularly pertain to decks, but the materials are quality materials and I think would also be appropriate in an ADC district.

All in favor?

Aye.

Do you want to defer?

Okay, next up.

Just somewhat humiliating.

Listen to Carl rattle that off.

You must have your practice things before you.

I don't like to waste time.

Well, my stumbling over words is not a function of time wasting.

It's just my brain's going faster than my mouth.

This is wasting time.

I'm wasting time.

Sorry.

This is a COA request for 872 Locust Avenue.

Again, it is within a Historic Conservation District, the Martha Jefferson Neighborhood Conservation District.

It was constructed in 1906 for widow Sally Reeves.

This two-story late 19th and early 20th century American movement style house is a contributing structure within the district.

The house features a hip roof and a porch that wraps the north and south facing facades.

And just as a note,

In the maps for the Historic Conservation District, there are two small structures in the back indicated as contributing.

Those no longer exist, and so if there was, Tim had asked about some, Tim the intern had asked about some of the things in the back impacting those structures, but they're, I can't find where.

where they went and no indication of when.

So that said, that's why in the rear, we had already approved or I told Mike that a lot of what's going on in the rear, the grade steps down because of the guidelines.

It doesn't have to be reviewed.

So there's a lot of those things in the back are already occurring.

So this request is for the garage there.

It's on the south side of the house, slightly set back to the rear.

The new garage will be 24 feet by 24 feet.

It has a hip roof with two dormers over a two-story portion, and there's a single-story segment at the rear with a hip roof that mimics that of the house's porch.

The exterior walls will have a four-foot section of brick matching the house.

Above that, a hardy plank siding.

The roofing is to be sanding seam, again, matching the house.

Entry doors, steel doors, the garage doors are a cedar-paneled garage door.

The windows will be a Marvin Integrity casement window.

And then the other component of this is some landscaping in the front yard.

There's a brick wall that runs along the sidewalk.

It's continuous.

The applicant has asked if they can create a four-foot break within the wall, allowing a walk to the front door from the sidewalk.

Otherwise, he currently is walking up through the driveway.

and also just some slight changes on the parking area, the existing, there's a portion of the parking area that will be turned over to sod.

I don't think anybody ever has issues with that.

Staff finds that the proposed garage and the site modifications are appropriate and we do recommend approval.

We'll start with questions from the public.

Okay, questions from the board.

Oh, that's what threw me off the questions.

Would you like to add anything to the staff report?

The front masonry wall was done about five to ten years ago.

The masonry we're using for the roof.

More like five.

Five, yeah.

By done, you mean built or repaired?

Built.

Yeah, built.

So I guess the existing there was just a concrete.

Someone formed up some concrete and put a metal plumbing pipe on the top.

So the mason came in and put brick on it, and it has an arch brick on top.

Is it concrete that scored?

It looked like it.

I don't think so.

I don't have any historical.

It's an inside joke.

I was going to laugh along, but it seemed like I knew.

So yeah, we just thought it would be more pedestrian friendly to have that.

So one question I have is whether you're requesting any landscape approvals other than the walk and the puncture of the wall and the changes to the parking area?

No.

So the front yard is basically being left as is there.

So there would be lighting.

You see the ceiling fixture.

Hang down on the door on the back and then there would be some lighting for the side entrance, the people door entrance to the garage that's currently shown on the left side up there.

Currently, no.

All right.

Well, now we'll circle back to questions from the public for the applicant.

Yeah, all good.

OK, comments from the public?

So I like the fact that we're turning it closer to its more historic

Landscape piece in my mind, getting the parking out of the front of the yard, getting it so that it's to the right after the pork and share garage over there, getting a opening and a sidewalk coming up to the front of the house instead of walking down the driveway.

I think all those are great improvements.

I like the design of the garage.

It seems very sensitive to the house itself and picks up a lot of the nice details.

I think it's a great project, this in general.

Yeah, I agree.

And whatever minor hesitation I might have had about the wall, that it's five years old, blast through it.

Right.

And so to open that back up, it absolutely is returning it.

It's sited to the side, to the rear, respectfully the main house.

And I also just wanted to add that I know you guys worked with Brett on site and it was figured out a way to save the country which I think is... That was... No?

Yeah, when Mike originally...

brought this in.

He had some trees circled.

I said, please don't make me ask Melanie to prove taking down that big tree.

No, I meant the entire PAR, but I do think I referred to the specific.

And so try to say we already had a compacted surface there with the parking lot already there.

And just really taking some steps to keep those trees along that south side, I think,

I'll win that I'll take any day.

Madam Chair, I have a motion.

Please.

Having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including historic conservation district guidelines, I move to find that the proposed garage and site modifications satisfy the BAR's criteria and are compatible with this property and other properties in the Martha Jefferson Historic Conservation District and that the BAR approves the application as submitted.

I'll second.

Okay.

And none opposed?

All right.

Thank you all.

Thank you.

All righty.

You made that much easier.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

And you know, switching now to a wall built in the 1930s.

This is 400 Ruckby Road.

Westminster Presbyterian Church was constructed circa 1939 designed by Marshall Wells and it is a contributing structure in the Rugby Road University Circle Venable neighborhood ADC district.

We've had some conversations about this situation before.

It's a bit of a recap in December of 2018, a preliminary discussion about the removal of this tree and work necessary to

There was also some discussion of as you continue what would be to the north and in that turnaround area to create some ADA accessibility.

and this design, the intent is to eliminate the need to do that and to accommodate that access through the northern break in the wall.

As you all recall, one of the primary concerns was the removal of the tree which actually falls within the city right away and also the work on the wall which falls within the city right away.

in subsequent discussions with City Forester, some conversations with folks on the tree commission.

It was suggested that it would be okay to remove the tree provided that the city manager approved it.

the authority to grant that.

And we, working with city attorney, drafted a letter, allowing the work on the wall, allowing the removal of the tree by the applicant, and so that's all been signed off on.

The last piece would be then getting approval from you all for

The removal of the tree, reduction of the grade behind the wall, removing the curved segment of the wall, and the request is to repair it with a straight segment, although it would maintain the design of the wall, the height of the wall, reuse the materials as much as possible.

On either side of that small segment, there are currently two openings that are stepped because of grade.

The one on the south is four steps.

The one on the north, I think, is two or three.

The plan is to, at the north entrance, lower that to grade with the sidewalk, and that would facilitate the ADA accessibility up into the sanctuary entrance there.

and then the entrance in the wall on the south side close to the railroad bridge would be the result is a two step or a two riser stair there.

At the area where the ash tree currently is, there would just be some low landscaping.

I know, Mr. Schwartz, you mentioned possibly a small tree in there.

You all can discuss that.

But the church did.

They've been anticipating the removal of this ash for some time.

And there's a series of large trees that have been planted between the wall and the sanctuary to, over time, fill in that space.

And all that said,

and staff's opinion again that the city manager has granted the permission to do this work within the city right of way and under the circumstances of moving a wall which is

Leany into the sidewalk, removing it and producing a segment of sidewalk that goes from two foot wide to four foot six.

Staff finds that their proposed tree removal brick wall modifications and the site modifications are appropriate and we recommend approval.

I'm Sandy Wilcox.

I'm the church administrator for Westminster.

In addition to what Jeff has already said, our impetus to doing this is really safety and accessibility.

We tried to address that.

We had, as you recall, an informal meeting several months ago, and have tried to incorporate a lot of those changes.

For the 600-member church in a 90-car parking lot, we have a lot of use of people walking to church.

And we make use of Lambeth Lane, University Way, Culbreath.

And this is the access point for them.

Otherwise, they're walking into the driveway, which is the reverse of what your last little project was addressing.

We have also been aware of the failing health of the tree and so five years ago we started these trees.

They were good size trees to begin with.

You can see in the picture that they're now filling in what would be a very open

Field for that.

The tree, as you look down the street, up and down the street, is pretty brutalized by the utility crews.

So the most it looks like a tree is from straight on the side.

It's displayed right out with wires through it.

So we are interested

in maintaining our role within that part of the neighborhood.

We know that we're kind of an anchor there.

We're not trying to have a very auspicious entrance for a church that size.

We're not a little country church, but we're not

We're trying to maintain a very kind of understated entrance.

I don't know if you have particular questions.

I have Jeff Aten from Nelson-Byrd, who's here to answer questions that I'm probably not the one to answer.

But we are trying to recognize the inevitability of that tree's

Ross.

We also have one of the most active sidewalks in all of Charlottesville.

And with two feet of clearance, there's no way that two people can pass on that without somebody stepping off the curb.

And that's also one of the most active bicycle and now motorized scooter lanes in the city.

So I think it is somewhat of a safety issue for the public as well as our safety in getting from the street and up into the property.

Alright.

We'll start with questions from the public.

I've got a couple.

Well the portion of the brick that you keep removing, it's just the piece that's in between the two openings, so you wouldn't touch the wall on either side of the two openings.

Is there a reason that, so the pathway, you've changed it a little bit, you've kind of made it a little more square than semicircle?

Is there...

So I think, do you have the, is it page three?

It looks like page four is the.

So it's not quite, and you can see how the path doesn't really come into the center of the opening.

It comes into the center of the church and is aligned with the front door.

But as it comes to the actual opening, it's not aligned.

We tried the semi-circle, but it means that in order to make that geometry work, you actually have to take apart part of the existing wall that's beyond this opening, which we didn't want to do.

So in order to make that adjustment, we've pulled it in a little bit and truncated it.

Otherwise, this arch, the circle doesn't come together in a geometry that really works.

Well, underneath here, you can see the existing.

Can you see the line underneath?

Yeah.

This line?

Yeah.

Right, in that line right there.

So you end up with two different arcs.

And

It makes the path a little bit less wide.

I think we're looking for a balance between keeping a geometry that is pleasing, matches the existing and the existing as the wall opening, and also creates a path that is accessible and at the proper width.

I don't know that we want to repeat something that wasn't particularly functional in the first place, so that's the effort here.

Sure.

But we wouldn't end up with the semicircle hitting that path at the same.

Yeah.

Correct.

They're mirrored, but then, as you can see, the center path is opposite.

because we want it to align with the front of the church.

Well, this is sort of still irregular, isn't it?

Well, okay, one more question that probably should fall into comments because it's going to turn into a mess.

But I'm wondering, so I understand you're trying to get ADA access.

I am wondering if you've looked at possibly bringing in ADA access from your far right entry point to the site.

So taking something across, you know, from where that little walkway is and cutting across, you know, behind the wall.

Yes.

Yeah, and grades are making it too difficult.

We'd have to zigzag through that yard and compromise some of those existing trees, which we really don't want to do.

No.

So there's parking, I think in the diagram on the left or that image on the left,

You can see where people can park past the driveway and so then they can walk from that parking space up a path, an accessible path that's to the left of this drawing and takes you to basically a porch that then allows you access to the front of the church.

I think there are multiple ones.

From the parking lot in the back, there's no real true ADA accessibility because of the way that the land falls there.

That's quite steep.

Yeah, exactly.

No.

So this comes up, so you can't use your existing grade here and still meet that point, correct?

Exactly.

And the grade comes to a point there close to the existing location and then it actually pitches up.

Kind of sad, because I've been mystified by this tree and wall ever since I lived across the street in graduate school in 1979, waiting for this wall to fall.

Still hasn't.

And I hate to see it go on, but I understand it completely.

OK. Should we move on to comments from the public?

All right.

I think this has come a long way since our first discussion.

And I find it to be an elegant solution to opening this up more to the street, accessibility, all those sorts of issues, clear passage on the sidewalk.

I mean, it is an intriguing thing to look at.

Of course there will be one of the few places in the city where the sidewalk is actually wider than two feet.

I think it's a pretty

I think it's a good solution to the handicap access thing.

I just have a little bit of a problem with the

The hardness of the geometry, given that it had sort of more of a country church aspect to it, I felt like when it was less hardline going around the outside of the curve, whether the one tucks in, the symmetry doesn't seem critical to me, but I think the grading makes a great deal of sense.

But I just would like it to be softer, more egg-shaped or irregular.

because it doesn't hit this church straight on and you know it has that just has this kind of nice somewhat meandering quality to it which was helped by the curved wall but I think also having the wall do the tipsy doodle also does that so I just it just feels a little stilted to me right now it's a little too rigid yeah that's my only concern

I get the tree.

I mean, I love the tree, but I get that at some point its days are numbered.

I just wish that there was another solution to this wall, because it's just something that, I mean, I haven't been to Charlottesville as long as Jody, but I've, you know,

I guess, what, 14 years now?

I mean, I love that wall.

And it's interesting, it's quirky, it's character-defining, and it's something I always enjoy walking by.

And it seems really important to the character of this site that it speaks to a time when rugby was a much different road.

So I really struggle with that, and I kind of, I just,

which element?

The curve in the wall.

It's really sort of the removal of the tree was the key issue and just the understanding that a wall segment would be

modified.

So, you know, is it OK that they're doing it in the city right away?

The design of that was a component of what the B.A.R.

decides.

Now, I mean, I guess the three solutions are one, no, put the curve back.

And the result is the width is what it is.

Second is some, well, do it straight.

And the third would be some element of curvature that would still allow a width, but maybe

offer that curved element that maybe we don't want to miss.

I'm not saying I have a preference one way or the other.

I will say a year and five months ago when I first met Sandy talking about this, and it's become an epic for us.

We don't want the journey to end yet.

I know it must.

But I was ready to chain myself to that wall in the sense of restoring it.

But I understand the

the point about the accessibility there.

Right, but that's the thing where it needs to, there needs to be some problem solving with the city and maybe it's not possible because there's, you know, you've got a bike lane there and I don't think the city's going to take away any bike lanes that they've already installed.

But all of the bike lane does end probably 40 feet north of that little curve.

30 feet down there's a power pole that gives you the same two foot width.

So I guess my hope would be that

I would take a straight wall over a compromised sidewalk so I recognize the need for the straight wall.

I hate to stall this some more, but I kind of want to stall you guys and say, go talk to traffic engineering.

I just don't know that you can pinch it there at that part of the street.

There's no bus stop.

There's two bike lanes and two travel lanes.

And it is 30 feet, so it's minimized.

But there's also the UVA side.

There's a big tree lawn that has no trees in it.

and you know it probably isn't possible but I'm not sure if that's actually been investigated.

I don't, I mean to modify the design and do something that's a remembrance of this and watered down I think would be the wrong, I'd rather just

Make it actually perform its function the way it should.

We'll smash a bottle of champagne on the wall, Carl.

I just want to say something that I know Jody you'll love and I forgot to mention it to you but Sandy called me last week and he said well what about your streets that work plan and I was like well Jody will be thrilled that someone has read that and referred to it and but it's it was not only because you've held my feet to the fire on it but it was it was eye-opening and that's what kind of got me to look at this differently I would if I could suggest

there's some elements to this that there's the tree removal, there's the grading, there are the adjustments to the site that happen within the wall and we know removing the wall.

If there is some additional evaluation that we'd like explored with the sidewalk width and what the city can or cannot do, I would suggest that's possible to allow things a lot to begin at least

But I'll say that I've asked about sidewalk replacement here.

I think Sandy has talked to everybody that I haven't talked to so we've covered the bases and it's a function of there's a list of when sidewalks get revisited and looked at and getting things on that list.

So the church, you know, right or wrong is eager to move forward with their plan and

and certainly wish there were things we could get done through the city, but that's what's trying to push this forward is the congregation saying we want to be proactive.

There's things we want to do.

Funny about the new design is my guess is the reason that the wall sweeps up where it's broken is because of the elevated grade.

So it makes sense for it to be higher there.

And then that reasoning goes away if the grade is reduced.

I don't think it should be straight across, but I think it's odd.

And then likewise, I think it's odd to not have some sort of a tree in that planning bed because

If there weren't something big there, why wouldn't the original plan have just been a hole in the middle and straight up through?

So if I can speak to the first, it may have been great, but I think it also had to do with privileging those openings.

It's sort of like instead of having piers, the pilasters, and the sort of lift of the wall was meant to say, you know, this is where you enter.

and that happens both on the northern one and on the southern one.

I mean I guess the other thing you could do if you're rebuilding the wall, and this may sound completely insane, but you could actually reverse the curve.

That kind of feels to me like what Jody was saying with the kind of not wanting to do a half curve or like a sort of curve.

That's just me.

It's just a mannerism.

But anyway, not you, but what I was suggesting.

It's kind of just a mannerist kind of inversion.

So I think that what we were concerned about putting a tree back there was that ultimately it will get pruned as you mentioned.

The middle of it will be cut out as it grows too tall, even if we were to do a small dogwood or something like that.

So I think, and the preference on the congregation's part was to keep that view open.

That would otherwise be sort of off-axis anyway.

I found it interesting that Tim characterized it as a country church because this is a sort of reduced scale Abingdon Episcopal Church, the Anglican Church in Gloucester County, 1755, which is a

Fantastic Georgian classical building that highlights cemetery and axis and having views in the front and so I'm fine with it being open like this in the front.

Well it's mostly because of the wall.

I thought that was actually an exact copy of an existing country church.

Which you're saying is a much grander building?

I like opening up the view to it and letting that be the focal point.

I think that's a positive move there.

And why put a tree back there so that 100 years from now the damn thing can

I just want to push out the straight wall that you're proposing to put in now.

In listening to you all speak about this, and you can sort of see it as a line there on the sidewalk, is that we could talk to the city about somehow marking the pavement there.

I mean, it could just be a scoring of that, or it could be some marking of that wall, tracing the wall on the ground.

So as you walked by there, you kind of have a memory of what was there.

It's a nice idea.

I think in a more urban setting that might really work well.

It may just get lost here.

I like it.

So I'm ready to make a motion.

Thanks for your questions or comments.

Having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including city design guidelines for site design and elements, I move to find the proposed tree removal, brick wall modifications, and site modifications, satisfy the BAR's criteria, and are compatible with this property and other properties in the Rugby Road, University Circumventable Neighborhood, ADC District,

Can I make some suggestions?

Certainly.

One that we are not approving the option that had the bluestone ends to the walls because they had two options in there.

I didn't pick up on that either.

I think what would be nice if it were, you know, they took some of the bricks and just laid them in the sidewalk in that shape.

We can encourage them to explore it and give me some time to

work my magic with the people who approve such things in the city.

Yeah, I think actually using the brick, that's a good idea and that might work.

Yeah, we're not.

So one, as Jody said, the pilasters need to be recreated.

and I'm fine with those.

Did anyone second?

I will.

Okay.

Any discussion of the motion?

Okay.

All in favor?

Aye.

All opposed?

That was an exercise in dogged determination on the part of the church.

This one fell out of order here.

This is it.

This is a certificate of appropriateness request.

This is the North Downtown ADC 201 East High Street.

This house was constructed around 1840.

It's the Minor Nelson House.

It is a contributing structure within the district.

It's a two-story neo-classical style house.

It reflects Georgian form and is one of three houses in the district with exterior chimneys.

Now, I found that kind of odd because all chimneys own the exterior, but it's

They're located on the ends of the house and not in the middle as typical in Virginia.

In 1971, there was a covered porch.

Can't say original, but it was there in the mid-1900s.

That porch was removed on the front elevation, and the currently existing brick and stone curved stairs were added.

The entrance round on the front door was modified, and the front gable detailing up above was removed.

The request here is to remove the existing non-historic front porch, replace it with a historically accurate covered porch and facade with detailing, which will replicate features known to have existed in the mid-1900s.

The existing door surround and side veranda will be used as guide for replicating the details, particularly the porch and tablature.

The existing lights near the entrance, on either side of the entrance door, will remain.

The restoration of the scrollwork detailing, which is at the center gable, will be

reproduced using the photographs.

There are shutters currently on the house on this facade, and those are going to be removed because they do not appear in historic photos.

So they're being removed for the sake of historical accuracy.

On the ground, there's the curved double walk, which was added in the 1970s.

That's to be removed in an installation of a new single brick walk to the entrance porch.

Very limited amount of landscaping.

It's not heavily detailed, but the hope is to some of the plants that are to be removed will be reused or new to match what's there.

Noting that

As far as replicating the, again hesitates to say original, but to replicating the historic front porch, the only detail that's altered here is that historic

Section had a Philadelphia gutter and this is going with a more contemporary gutter.

Staff's opinion is that that isn't really, that that revision does not negatively impact the integrity of the project.

In fact, the gutters will be suspended.

The e-detail will be the same as what was there, so the gutters won't interfere with that.

Again, you all might have some questions about the plantings.

Have not discussed the color palette with the applicant, but generally downtown we

and those are things that I can review administratively so I didn't get too concerned about that.

If something's going to be changed, don't let me know.

That said, staff does want to commend the owners, the architect and the builder.

They've been extremely diligent in researching and developing what we think is a true and very respectful reconstruction plan.

We find the proposed reconstruction restoration of the covered porch and

We recreated the gable detail are appropriate and we recommend full approval.

Roger Brunt with the Gains Group standing in for Paul Tessell.

He was not able to be here.

What I do have for you tonight is also an original photograph

of the porch that they're proposing to reproduce and put back on the existing house.

And the other information that we have I think is from Ed Lay where he did extensive research on this house.

All right, everybody's looking at the photo.

Did you have anything else you wanted to add?

No.

Other question is minor.

So you're recreating the cornice, but it looks like you're using the K style gutter as part of that to kind of replicate some of the trim.

Yes, I think that's from the photograph what we could tell.

OK.

I'm not sure if this is a preference either way, but I'm just curious if there is any thought to actually completely recreating the cornice and then putting a half round or something as a gutter.

Just a thought if that was considered.

What were you saying?

No, don't do the crown.

But actually build the crown as trim and put a half round outside of that.

Oh, right, right.

Yeah, you're right.

Didn't catch that.

My questions.

Any other questions?

OK, we'll move on to comments.

I'd like to start by saying this is one of the best applications I've seen.

It's very thorough, got lots of great historical information, so thank you.

Thank you.

I agree.

I absolutely agree, and I don't know if you know this or not, but there's a photo of this project on the page

in the Charlottesville design guidelines that references porches, even though the porch has been ripped off.

And so the fact that it's being replaced is like some poetic justice.

Oh, wow.

This reminds me of Jerry Starshio's house down the street where they had that same kind of overwrought stairway.

I love that.

Yeah, no, I think this is terrific.

I would side with Carl on doing a half-round gutter and building the full cornice, but those K gutters don't really warm my heart much.

Thanks, great application, looks good.

Actually, FIPON will do the Temple of the Winds.

Oh, they're doing something that matches?

I spent way too much time walking around in this building today because I don't think we'll ever know historically how this building evolved.

There is so much going on here.

Temple of the Winds is not a Carpenter Gothic typical same period.

They're two different periods.

I tend to think that actually some of the capitals and the columns from the front porch that used to be there

or then transfer it over to that side piece because you'll notice that it's a two bay side in the historic photos and is now a three bay side.

And the proportions of the columns don't seem to match to the front.

So I tend to think that they may have ended up over there so by matching them now we're

In my mind, I think, my conjecture is that they used to be on this front porch.

But I also think the front porch before this was just a single bay porch.

Over the door that had a balustrade flat roof and that was a door on the second floor that went out to it.

If you look at the seams and the brickwork, in fact the other doors on the first floor, they also went down to the floor of the porch.

There's just a lot going on here that's really interesting.

I also noticed that even though the wing to the left is later, the JAM profiles all match the original block of the house and the wing as if they maybe at that time they took away the

Windows that went all the way down and then changed all the window framing and jams.

Interesting place.

So I would hesitate if I were the owner to say and the architect to say, we know exactly what it looked like in the past.

I don't think we do.

But what you're suggesting seems fine to me.

There's precedent for it.

We have historic photographs to back it up.

And I'm fine with it.

I just thank you for bringing this kind of challenge to us.

Gentlemen?

Anyone?

All right.

Go for it.

Is everyone OK with the gutter idea?

Yep.

OK.

So having considered the standards set forth in the city code, including city design guidelines for rehabilitation, I move to find the proposed reconstruction restoration of the covered porch in gable detail.

Satisfy the BAR's criteria and are compatible with this property and other properties in the north downtown ADC district.

Aye

I just remembered though, I don't think the front door that's under now, that entablature does not match what's on the side.

So you should be matching the whatever, South addition.

Yeah, you should be matching that entablature.

Yeah, that one.

Not the front door.

The front door is not actually correct, even though I think in the literature they say it is.

Carrie, I had my microphone up.

Did you catch that?

Thank you.

We said the ayes.

OK. Any no's?

All right.

You're all set.

No, wait a second.

Tim, second.

Jerry, that was a good point, too, about the original and historic.

I know in grad school, there was always some of the younger students going, well, that's clearly original.

And you can't say that.

You cannot prove to me it's original.

It's old.

It's historic.

But you can't say original.

Let's see what we've got.

a certificate of appropriateness application for 421 West Main Street, which is in the, I think this segment is in the downtown ADC district.

It's just the Quirk Hotel project.

That project covers several parcels.

However, the extent of this request is limited to the parcel that had been 421 West Main Street.

In 2017, you all approved the demolition of the, there was a post-1920 concrete block building on the site.

And prior to that, back in the 1920s, the Sanborn map shows there's some old frame buildings here.

But this is the landscape, hardscape plan for that.

The piece on the eastern side of the project, you all reviewed it in April of 2018.

The request is to make some slight revisions to that plan.

And I know all of you have your staff report right in front of you right now.

I just want to point out, going back through it and looking at the drawings, there's a bulleted list, but I want to be clear about what's new and what's not.

The first bullet is that low hedge to match the hedge in the front.

That is on the prior plan, no change there.

Blue stone pavers to match the quirk entry pavers, no change there.

The third item, four honey locust trees, that is a change.

There's currently, the prior plan had six.

The change is to four.

The next bulleted item is a change.

There's a six foot tall bronze painted aluminum picket fence with a center gate and that would be on the southern end just behind the honey locust.

The crushed granite field with pathway lighting is in the prior plan.

34 inch by 34 inch

Sorry.

The blue stone terrace with the perimeter and low lighting, that is a change in the stone size, my understanding.

A note about a door existing from the lobby onto the blue stone terrace, no change.

Flat lawn area abutting the sloped lawn area.

That's in the prior plan, no change.

Then there's a three foot wide crushed granite pathway, which follows the left edge of the lawn area.

That is a change.

Door to the existing hotel gallery is in the prior plan.

Six foot tall hedge with a gate at the building edge is in the prior plan.

The two ginkgo trees in the rear, that's a budding Commerce Street, that's in the prior plan.

Then there's the concrete retaining wall, one foot above grade with six foot tall solid wood fence on top of it.

That is a change.

So, if you see there, there are one, two, three, four, five items on that list, which are actual revisions to what was reviewed in 2018.

Staff finds that generally these revisions are appropriate.

We do recommend approval with some condition about the exterior lighting fixtures.

I know there were some questions about what are the low-level lights.

We certainly want to address the lamping questions.

There's also the wall, the fence on the east side.

that's above the concrete wall.

You all had some questions about that, so maybe there's some details that you'd like to see.

That's what I have.

And the applicants are here.

If you would like.

Yeah, just come say hi.

As he pointed out pretty clearly, I think we've just made a few revisions to it.

I guess we kind of came in front of you.

We're trying to push this through to get a site plan review to get this.

This parcel, as you'll remember, wasn't part of the original submission we purchased.

We're trying to kind of catch this back up.

So as part of the site plan review process, obviously coming to you guys, where there are decisions that you guys might have questions about, we're sort of just here to answer them and we would like to sort of get your opinions on things that may not be clear here or see how we can push this through and get approval.

Clarify the lighting.

Oh, and clarify the lighting.

The lighting question, basically we're using

We're going to basically use the same light fixtures that were approved in the courtyard on the adjacent parcel.

So presumably, you know, we will stipulate that those will match the color temperature and everything else that have been previously approved.

We'll use the exact same fixtures, in fact.

All right.

Let's start with questions from the public.

Okay.

Questions from the board.

Go ahead.

Well, I'm going to start with a big one.

So my understanding from the last approval that we have of this portion of the project, because I know you have a full COA for everything west of here, was that we approved the concept.

So there's still details, I think, that never actually got – I'm not sure you guys ever got a full COA yet to amend.

Okay, just so I'm clear on that.

Did you ever present the gate to us?

This is what I was saying before, we're coming before you with what we have.

In part, I guess what we're probably asking is that we might be able to get this approved kind of through with conditions, and those might be the gate, the fence, any edging.

I think we're kind of coming to you to ask what you would like to see there, but I think in sort of maybe speeding up the process that you might normally see.

Okay.

Yes, that's correct.

I'm excited.

I can't wait.

And I guess to the extent that

you know I guess what it takes to get a site plan approved I guess is there a way to get what we need from you guys sort of on the macro level that then with conditions of we'll come back to you about the fence and gates and any other questions you have from here to there.

I just want to make sure I hadn't forgotten that there was some.

I had some questions just about the retaining wall and fence that are on the east property line.

And I know you guys included some of the existing photos.

but it's not clear exactly where the property line is.

What will be on that opposite side of that fence?

So yeah, on the right side of the plan here there is a parking lot for Century Lake.

No, that wall will remain, it will start and it will go straight back.

I don't believe, I'm trying to think of, so where it would happen is where that line is this flat grass lawn and I don't know that I have an exact dimension for you.

I could get that.

It's probably three feet, four feet.

It's not massive.

Like there are a lot of slopes but not heavily and ours will slope slightly a little bit but not just enough to get water off.

But it won't be very tall.

But again, our purpose is just to retain the earth so we can keep a flat lawn there.

Does that fence, what is the extent of that?

Is that all the way to the front of the property?

I think the idea is that the fence would start at the front of the property and go all the way back.

I suppose if it were desired it could be probably pulled back to the gate and it will run.

It doesn't go all the way to the back of the property because there's an adjacent building

There's like a brick retaining wall.

There's a building at the back of Century Lincoln.

So we kind of hit that.

We'll go up to that and stop.

So we'll leave the existing brick.

where the flat lawn, where the lower flat lawn is.

There, we'd leave that.

Oh, yeah.

OK. OK.

I was confused.

Right, right.

God.

I'm losing it.

Just out of curiosity, you're removing

We did that originally.

Sorry, I don't mean to cut you off.

I'm sorry.

Originally, we had lawn in that front panel, and we were doing stepping stones through the lawn.

I think the lawn, we realized, was not going to last long, probably based on use.

People would just crush it.

So we kind of just took the crushed stone all the way to the front, thought it would feel more park-like in that way, and also be easier to maintain.

Okay.

Other questions?

All right.

Comments from the public?

I think that's in the package.

It's the section there on the bottom left.

Yeah.

I guess I'm looking for a little bit more articulation of this elevation.

This seems rather schematic.

Okay.

The further development of that would just be the design of that wood fence.

But really, that's the grading, effectively, that will happen, more or less, as shown.

And again, the green will be replaced with the fence that we will come back and show you as a design.

But there isn't much more to develop.

Well, I think we do need to see that fence material in detail and the gate as well.

I continue to think that the project is really elegant.

It's proving itself out as it's come up out of the ground and I think this is a very reasonable approach to this site.

My only particular comment at this time is I think that our guidelines are fairly clear about the height of some of the fences, especially for that fin that comes out beyond the gate to the street.

I think that probably the fence either ought to terminate at that point and transition to a hedge that might be the same height as the low hedge at the front or have a lower

Gate, a lower fence that is down to four feet, which is what our guidelines recommend.

The other thing is that the side gate with the one foot plus the six foot is above what our recommendations are for fences and my concern is that on the back it is, at least it appears according to the photos, going to be quite a barrier.

That makes sense.

I think that's probably what we meant to say.

Six foot was probably the total.

I think it's that.

It's really about maintenance and cost.

And again, I think we're also finding in the world of the hotel

Right, yeah, and that's the other thing.

And I think this is another item that was mentioned was furnishings.

We won't have permanent furnishings so we won't need to come back to you for that.

I can imagine that we will pot plants and want to put greenery in the space.

I don't know if those need to come back to you directly or if those can sort of be placed, but I think the idea is this is going to be a magical, beautiful place that they can have lots of events and do things there.

When you're talking about maintenance, it makes me wonder about the big crushed granite fields and the crushed granite walkways.

I think that's something we, well just around town, landscape architects love crushed granite walkways and inevitably it seems like it becomes a maintenance problem and I entertain myself by watching them then get changed to, you know, bluestone or pavers or something else besides crushed granite because it doesn't end up

Yeah, and to some extent I'm sure that would be, we would love to make that all a bluestone field.

I think that's probably a budgetary concern that, again, they may do in the future as they are able to.

I can imagine, but I think right now we were sort of just imagining that one parcel where the door comes out to be the main bluestone area because that's where people sort of traffic mostly.

And the pathway against the building is kind of a dual purpose.

It's the path, but that's not really going to be a well-traveled path.

It has more to do with keeping the grass off of the building, so again to keep the building clean so we're not splashing dirt up on the building.

It's a walk away, but it's mostly going to be just for that use.

It's, again, not a public park, but I'm sure they will be inviting the neighborhoods behind and all of these things.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this a year ago, whenever you last came to us.

The gate at the front, I mean as transparent as that can be, I recognize you probably want to have some privacy if you want to have an event back there, but at the same time if there's some way that when the gates open, maybe it's a double gate and not a single door.

I think that's been the general thinking today is that it's some sort of, you know, not a heavy visual barrier.

I don't think we'd thought of doing...

I think the idea is to leave it open there.

Part of it was that sloped lawn might be a great place to set up a band down at the bottom, have that be sort of a hillside to sit and watch something like that.

You know, I think the openness, I mean there's certainly, there's an idea that in 10 years this could be quite different based on how they, how it sort of comes to be used.

This seems like a good, nice flexible way to start, but I can see the bottom half of that becomes a good event, sort of events.

The lawn might need to be made into more hardscape so that it doesn't get muddy.

But again, trees, again, if there's a desire for more shade, trees are obviously the best way to do that.

So I can imagine that happening.

OK.

So I mean, not good.

Well, I am pretty thick.

We're down here trying to figure out, looking at Google Earth, you know, what's existing, what are they doing?

I'd like to be able to do that on the drawings.

So I'd like to see an existing demolition drawing and then what's being proposed, things called out on that drawing, what's proposed, what's existing.

On our site, literally, it's a dirt-grated thing from top to bottom.

There isn't anything existing to show on a plan.

Oh, gotcha.

Okay, so that, okay, so you just like to see, I guess we have some pictures of that, but you would like, I guess we don't have

I guess we did not do a survey of that wall, so I don't have drafted points of the elevations of the century link wall and the brick wall.

We've sort of estimated them in our drawings as best we knew.

Where we're pouring a concrete wall, we're pouring up against, so they have a parking lot right now that's a retaining wall to our lot, so it's higher than the current grade just because, and so we're going to raise our grade up to be leveled.

So we have to pour a little retaining wall because we can't rely on their retaining wall just because it's theirs and not ours, so that's why we're pouring a retaining wall.

I hear you describing it.

I'd like to see it.

Okay.

It's just a little hard to get the context on that side of the wall, that's all.

Sure.

And maybe just a 3D sketch would resolve it, just showing

We're just having a hard time figuring out what's happening with the brick wall.

But yes, we can provide more information.

I can come around.

I'm happy to try and make things clearer.

What we're doing is we're taking this grade and trying to come flat.

That's why we need a drawing.

We're taking the grade up at Main Street and coming flat out straight here.

So we have to pour a retaining wall to catch that.

We will then grade down and catch sort of flat down here so we won't really be covering any of this.

We're just covering up the green, at least we can cover up most of the green fence and we'll build a fence.

So basically from our site we won't need to see the green fence.

Hopefully they will move the green fence once our nice fence is up.

Yeah, the site.

Okay, what is that brick structure?

The hedge is right here.

It's a bunker.

It's not a retaining wall?

It's a building.

A garage or something.

Yeah, a garage.

But yeah, we'll have our hedge aligned with the face of this building and then we have street trees that

Can't wait for it.

Here you go.

My only comment is it looks like... That's a parking garage next door.

Ah, okay.

Well, eight trees didn't come out of this side.

All the same, it'd be great to see a bunch of trees are gone.

But we're on the total.

I'm always for more trees.

You see this picture?

No, that's right.

But we're going to plant seven in the back.

We'll plant these four in the front.

And then we have actually three or four more in the courtyard.

I mean, we agree.

I would like to plant more trees, and we'd like to see more trees planted.

The upper side.

On the bottom section, there is no door.

So the dream thing is a hedge.

OK. And so we don't really have anything to vote on per se.

Again, Jennifer Mullen, I don't think I introduced myself last time, so I will this time.

So from our site plan perspective, without a COA for the property as it is with conditions to come back for the fence details, the aerial and the cross section with the more detailed component,

Then our site plan doesn't move forward, which means it can't catch up with the hotel side that's been approved.

So we can work through those items and bring them back and come back and see you all next month with maybe particularly the cross-section details.

What essentially the planner would ask is in two dimension, the drawing that's behind you, what in two dimension, because that's what a site plan reflects, whether it's a metal fence with square pickets or round pickets, or whether it's a wood fence with a

I mean, that's possible.

Yeah.

So it's the motion.

Right, the motion and what we're doing is not referring to things as revisions anymore.

This is a plan, so the COA would be for this plan.

Now if the stipulation is that you're a COA for this plan relative to the two-dimensional view with the provision that certain

Elevation details we've provided, that would probably allow us to work with the planner to say, yeah, that this plan and, you know, its definition of plan is acceptable.

I mean, so are you saying, though, that the site plan approval is contingent on a COA?

That's my understanding, yes.

And it's, but think of it all, I mean, in sort of an absurd way, be saying, you know, what the side of this building looks like if they, let's say we were talking about the windows on the side and, you know, they were gonna take half of them off of there.

The site planner wouldn't care.

So they're looking for a very provision, I mean, in that case, the site plan approval, not you guys, but that suggests that they're looking for provisional COA, like we're just saying, this portion of it makes sense to us, but we can't actually issue a COA.

not by definition, what I understand to be the definition of COA.

But we've done it like with massing and stuff where we basically say, this makes sense, let's keep moving.

I mean, so we basically tried to dovetail our responses to process as opposed to whatever you want to call it.

It is somewhat and unfortunately it's one I'm not, you know, my experience with chickens is a little weak on this one.

But what I do understand from the planners is what they want to know is that in two dimension, is this what we're getting?

Whether it's painted blue or purple or whether they use crushed blue stone or crushed gray stone, is stone going there?

Is there a walkway where there's going to be a walkway?

Are there trees where there are going to be trees?

Is this lawn going to be lawn?

Is it sloped where they say it's going to be?

Right, I understand that they have a small segment of it, but I mean, in terms of a COA, I mean, we can say within the context of the site plan, this all seems fine to us.

If we had a remodel come to us that really didn't know the doors, they didn't know the

And I certainly understand that.

I guess from a site without buildings on it, the fundamental square around this site is similar and very consistent with what was approved in the previous, and maybe that was not a COA, maybe that was my mistake for calling it that.

So the component that we understand we need for our

approval process to move forward is a certificate of appropriateness.

No, I understand.

Yeah.

It's just what's the you know, what's the proper verbiage here?

So I'll help out here.

So what what it is, is it's a

When a site plan comes in, they'll say, hey, this is what the BAR looked at.

Now, if you all were to say, instruct me that what we're seeing here in two dimensions, Jeff, this is what we want to see.

Then I go back and I have this record here, and I know when I'm looking at the site plan, anything that deviates from that

that view.

You know, I can, that's the note, that's what the BAR wants to see or hey, yeah, this is consistent with what the BAR on July 16th looked at.

If, and so it doesn't need a COA necessarily, it doesn't need a, you know, that certificate suitable for framing thing.

It's my review and my understanding what you all have looked at.

But, so I don't, I wouldn't say it requires a motion, but it, you can certainly instruct me that

So the other reviewers, so cyclone reviewers, so everyone else has confidence that we've looked at it?

And I can say, yes, this is what... Now, you can continue with the process.

Right.

Yes.

And, you know, just if you want, refer specifically to the, you know, as shown on page three and just leave it at that.

And then this is the page I'm running with and this is the page I'm looking at.

Great.

Thank you.

And much like last time, that's just moving through the process.

We appreciate it.

Should we make a list of things we want to see?

I think that's probably a good idea.

Yes.

So top of fence would be six feet above grade.

We want to see the metal fence and gate design.

One drawing that indicates the relationship with the neighbors or with the CenturyLink site.