Board of Architectural Review Meeting   8/15/2023

I'm not trying to be too cryptic in my comment because I don't want to say too much but not enough.

I don't know, and as I said to them, the BAR's role is to say this is a protected property, you can't raise it.

who had that discussion.

So you all are welcome to kill the discussion whenever you want or kind of entertain some ideas.

I've been back and forth on this one.

Sort of think it, say.

Oh there is room, okay.

Assuming that building goes,

What are the elements?

Are there things?

Are there anything about it?

Or is there anything about it that you love?

So I don't mean to just throw it at you like that.

Yeah.

But none of it was filled out as far as how old the building was or when.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah.

It is on the National Register, it's contributing to the West Main Historic District on the National Register.

It is contributing to the downtown ABC District.

I think it's kind of hard to talk about without knowing.

I mean, hotel is the only thing that I got out of that.

I suggested they buy the church.

They said they wouldn't look at it.

It's in such bad shape.

And I've been in there.

It's not a, I mean as far as a streetscape building or meeting our new zoning guidelines, it's a pretty terrible building, but it is historic.

Well, except did they have a sprinkler burst or something?

Oh, possibly.

The whole thing is tiled.

I mean, the waiting room area.

Oh, okay.

Can you back up a second?

Why are we kind of required to say no?

A lot of those, some of them are, that was a late district.

So the West Main ABC District and then the National Register District is kind of a late edition and goes, it doesn't line up with the ABC District.

But again, just from looking at the criteria and saying check, check, check, I said it's likely to be a difficult position to say, yeah, go ahead and raise it.

Would the BAR be able to make a recommendation to City Council saying that this is a another example of boring 1960 architecture that should be eliminated from the face of the earth and

All right, we could keep the clock.

The one that comes to mind that's really close, kind of similar, is the, what was the, it was like Metropolitan.

It's where the, um, next to the, where the clock shop was.

It was a, it was a white automotive brick front building.

Where Waterbird is now?

where the Waterbird Distillery is?

That's an older building.

That was the clock shop.

It was next to that.

But that was a pretty similar era and it was definitely a contributing structure that we did.

Because there were other examples and it wasn't particularly remarkable.

I'm making a good Sonic.

I mean, it didn't work.

Let me do it.

Hello, everybody.

I looked it up.

It's at the old train station.

It used to be just from the parking lot.

They were doing that.

I think they ended up moving it, I think.

Did they?

Okay.

Right, or the sun or whatever, yeah.

When I looked it up online today, the pinpoint was at the train station, which makes sense, transportation hub.

I don't know.

I feel like the building we're talking about, the character-defining features to me are, yeah, the clock, and then, honestly, it's where the buses pull in and the overhang's in the back.

That's what tells me it's a bus station.

But that's kind of in the way of doing anything with that site.

I know one person, but I don't live here.

Largest example of pebble concrete still in existence?

27 trash cans.

That was not nice.

All right, so I mean, that sort of sets the table.

Here's another easy one I just wanted to really, you all remember 116 West Jefferson Street, where they, it was like maybe a year and a half ago, they were gonna redo the front porch right there across from McGuffey, and their COA labs,

sort of reaffirmed things.

And if you recall, there's that ugly 1980s edition on the back with the press board, fiber siding and junky windows.

They came back.

They would like to remove the fiber board panels, use a party plank.

I told them on the shutters to

on the back.

This would be facing south.

There's going to take that door out and that roof and just make all the windows in the back.

The drawing, it's really identical.

It's just that on the right-hand side, they've expressed the siding.

So I told them, I have no problem with this.

Welcome Change.

The only thing they're doing on the house part is up here, this hyphen is remaining and they're just, they're going to take this deck, this upper port, and just extend it so that it, you can just, on this, see that the lease on

side here.

They're just going to bring it so that it kind of covers that hyphen up and extends over those windows.

So it's, it's, to me, I don't think I had any more images.

Yeah, so that's where they were.

In the COA, you would, it was a lot of the language, you know, work with staff on the windows staff, you know, give me latitude with them on improving this 1980s edition.

So I just wanted to, I'm going to still do it with a

A formal administrative submittal, but I was not going to bring it to you all.

I'm going to talk to them about the lights and the shutters.

Those are the things I just want to, before they do that, but as far as the siding, painting the roof, changing the windows, we've already discussed.

I don't know yet what they want to put on.

You know, people say, well, we don't want to do it often, so I said, well, figure it out if you want to get on, and then, OK, I'll OK, though.

But don't just say you're going to do shutters.

So they have to, we don't allow composite, we don't allow.

I don't see any reason to let them move forward with this.

I mean, the only thing that gives me pause is the alterations to the back porch.

Do we know that it's not original to the historic house?

Like, I don't know.

I can say, because we looked at them, what the porches are on there are not

There are reports just there, but those are not done.

They've been butchered and rebuilt.

Oh, they haven't changed it.

They haven't touched it.

That's what I mean.

So the back of the house is right there.

And then this is that upper porch.

This is the hyphen that extends.

So they're just going to build on top so that you can access this

This seems to be heading in the direction of a B&B boutique hotel, so it's kind of a

I'm going to hold off on three things.

This was one.

Obviously, the bus station.

You guys will take the time with that.

After the discussion about such a vibe,

and then the media discussion at the end about trying to put together a game plan to update the design guidelines.

So again, not talking about what's changed, but just talking through my, I haven't shared it, I didn't.

But I can mention the code real quick, we've got five minutes.

I think you all are on appointed board.

The comment, one of the things that's attached to this is a letter that Preservation Piedmont put together, sent to the City Council, sent to the Planning Commission, who sent the correct intent in the entire BAR.

They list a series of things that they're asking about in this ordinance.

You're welcome to respond to them or however you want.

I've been in conversation, and Mary Joy actually has been working kind of for me at Preservation Piedmont on this, but I think I will say that, like for example, they mentioned in here that we separated the ADC districts, or we kind of pulled together the descriptions of the ADC districts, conservation districts, and the reason I did that

on my part to streamline things.

They've asked about some additional conservation districts in the city.

I've expressed to them that those have to be neighborhood driven.

We've done a lot of neighborhood surveys.

Rose Hill, for example, I met with that neighborhood I think three times.

We did get early on the National Register, but there wasn't the energy or interest there

So I think that's something that the VAR could certainly say.

We think it's a great idea to do it, but it's still out there.

If a neighborhood wants it, then they have to really come across and express that support.

The other thing in here, too, about there are some conflicts.

Imagine you've got a building for two or three stories, typically 30, 40 feet back.

You've got a setback that's historically established.

The CX-3, I think is what we proposed there, is three stories.

It had been five, but now it's ten, and pulling everything almost to the side.

This should be back and should respect the height of the other buildings.

What happens?

And we're still working through that, but we can't put into an ordinance that what the BAR says goes.

Everything by state code, anything that you all decide must be available to council.

So that's where there are potential conflicts

Well, not just appealable to counsel, but just the, I think it was the idea of like, if there's a build two zone, allowing the BAR to set the build two zone further back.

And James said he was going to take care of that.

I guess, OK.

I don't have an answer for that.

But that's one of the questions that you all certainly, Carl,

But we've gotten to the point where this thing is going to pick up speed.

The sledding is going to go fast.

So if you have questions, talk to me.

If you want a copy, I'll print one.

I have not read it in its entirety.

I've only tried to stick to it in my lane.

So speaking of sticking to our lanes, I'm going to reply to Ms.

Keller and to Preservation Piedmont.

Generally, I would support all the things they've picked up on and I get it.

In one, though, they say that the BAR, and sorry, I got an Invisalign a week ago and I still can't talk.

I have a lisp.

I'm just saying that on public television.

I have a speech impairment for a long time, so there's nothing wrong with me.

I just can't talk with these things on.

The letter says the BAR should review as a board the specific language proposed in the zoning code to help minimize conflicts with both the AGC guidelines and the HC guidelines.

I mean, we all know that there are conflicts, but I actually don't think that's our job.

I think that our job is not to establish the guidelines.

I think the guidelines should be established by the political body in the city, meaning elected body, which is city council.

They're the ones who have pushed for this change in the zoning ordinance.

They are the ones responsible for telling us what the will of the political will is with regard to the conflicts that are going to be very apparent that Mr. Warner's pointed out.

But I don't think it's our job to resolve those conflicts.

I think our guidelines probably necessarily have to be revised, and we may be part of that process.

Certainly I know Carl has probably identified, and I'm sure Jeff has identified,

All of the specific places that we can think of right now, like East High Entrance Quarter, but there are probably things that we haven't anticipated, but I really don't feel that we are a political body and we should be

We've been talking about this for a while.

This came up in several appeals to counsel where I felt like we followed the guidelines.

not follow what the political will was and they got appealed to council and maybe a political will was supported at that point.

But I would have some strong opinions about continuing to serve here if we are the body to completely rewrite the ADC guidelines.

I don't think that's our job.

I think we certainly should have input.

I think we certainly should point out the conflicts from our experience where

Applications will be impacted by the new zoning ordinance, but there are going to be some, you know, rubber hits the pavement things that I don't want to express a personal opinion about, especially if I'm going to be adjudicating applications under the new guidelines.

You know, what if something that I wanted in the guidelines doesn't get in there and then somebody accuses me of bias later because I'm treating every application differently because I push for one thing or another.

I mean, we are

You know, one of the reasons why I enjoy being on this board is I think that we're the most, hopefully, one of the most least politically appointed boards in the city.

And I wouldn't want us to be rewriting a zoning ordinance.

I mean, I'm happy to review it.

I think it should be bounced up to council to say, who are you hiring as a consultant to rewrite these?

which is what happened last time.

Frazier and Associates did it the last time we rewrote it.

Of course we'll review it.

Of course we'll have input and impact.

You know, the public should too.

Council should too.

The Planning Commission should too.

But for it to originate with us, I think that's just a really thorny road to go down.

She said we should review as a board the language and help minimize future conflicts.

The only way we can help minimize future conflicts is to revise the ADC guidelines and the HC guidelines.

And we know it doesn't.

I mean, that's the whole discussion we've been having for the last 15 minutes, right?

But I think the guidelines won't be updated right away.

But this has specific language to look at.

You're right.

In the zoning code, which Jeff has offered, print us out the pertinent.

He's already done it.

He'll send us any other parts of the zoning code.

It's 140-some pages.

We all can access it electronically.

We have been during the entire process.

It's been very transparent.

But I personally am not going to review the zoning code and say, oh, I don't like this part of the zoning code because it conflicts with our current guidelines.

That's sort of switching the process around.

The new zoning code is

You know, it's not quite been adopted, but it's the thing.

Maybe to find the conflicts, yes, but... Well, I think for the amount of money that they pay the consultants, I mean, I agree.

I think it should have been part of the work plan from the beginning.

I mean, it was evident from the beginning that the zoning ordinance doesn't stand alone in our city.

No, I think that was helpful.

I don't think it's in conflict with what's been written here in that letter.

Yeah, that we look at the code and then we identify where we think the pitfalls or speed traps or whatever will be and be conscious of those until we get the ADC guideline.

I do think that, well, I think I have several thoughts and maybe we come back to this later in the meeting, but I think it is a lot to ask a volunteer board to review the 140 page, you know, volume three to find all of the conflicts.

However, that being said, of all of the people in this city that are regularly,

trying to balance the possibilities of new construction and renovation with their historic fabric, we have unique kind of experience that we can add to that conversation.

I think they're just asking for us to weigh in.

So maybe when we come back to this, let's think about a way that we could maybe collect those, any comments that we do have with the time we have available to review these so that we could put them together in a more formal way.

No response to this letter.

And I think you're all saying the correct things.

What I expressed back, or I've tried to express back, is that I will, I've asked, I've offered, you know, the BAR is interested, but I cannot require, nor are you all required by ordinance to review this and comment on it.

This is not, you're not charged with this.

So I just wanted to make that clear to folks that if something doesn't work later, I don't want it said, oh, well, you all didn't.

Well, that's not what you're talking about.

So I've defended that.

At the same time, I've said, anything we want to discuss, let's

Welcome to the regular monthly meeting of our Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review.

We only have a few items, but we'll introduce those items that will come from staff and we can have a presentation of up to 10 minutes.

We'll ask for questions from the public, followed by questions from the BAR.

After the questions, we'll have time for comments for the public and then comments from the BAR.

After, we should make note that if you are speaking to the project, please identify yourself and provide your address.

We'll keep comments limited to BAR's purview that is regarding the exterior aspects of the project.

After our discussion and before taking action, the applicant will have a few minutes, three minutes to respond.

All right, tonight the first item on the agenda are matters from the public not on the agenda or on the consent agenda.

Do we have anyone here or online that has a matter not on the agenda?

OK, we'll split it into two votes.

Do I hear a motion on the May 16th, 2023 minutes?

So moved.

All in favor?

Aye.

Any opposed?

One abstention.

So noted.

We'll move to the meeting minutes of June 21, 2023.

Move to approve as submitted.

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

One abstention.

Thank you.

All right.

And I'm not sure, was the county courts, was that around a published agenda, the county courts project?

If it was, and anyone is here to pine on the county courts project, note that that has been deferred to the September meeting, we understand.

And so you don't need to stay tuned for the entire evening.

So this is 605 Grove Avenue.

This is in a historic conservation district in the Martha Jefferson district.

So just to stress that the level of review is far less rigid than for an ADC district.

I grew up calling these brick ramblers, but I don't know if that fits.

Brick ranch house per the, what do they call it in the 20th century?

Actually, it's not in this one as that, but that so it's a house constructed in 1956.

It's been before you about five years ago, they did submission on the side and out the back.

This is calling for some alterations to go to the elevations best.

a expanding or replacing the addition on the side, which is north, and also a small addition on, I'm sorry, on the south side, and a small addition on the north wing.

And then there's a proposed dormer, some slight changes to the front porch, and they're changing out those basement windows.

The, normally I would have

This would have fit the sort of minor edition I would have reviewed with the board chair and probably have approved administratively, but I just very honestly was uncertain about the dormer and I just wanted to, because that is

to the house itself and I wanted to bring it to you for that reason.

Again, it's a conservation district.

We want to tread lightly.

Even had a conversation with Mary Joy the other day about conservation districts and she said, you know, the key is

really to have a means to tap the brakes on demolitions.

So that's the number one priority, and we're not seeing that here.

But with that, I'll hand it off to Gabe, and you can, you know, if you have anything to offer or answer any questions, or if you all have any questions for them, if you like, yeah.

I don't have a ton.

I mean, you've seen the application.

I'm Gabe Schneider, by the way.

Nice to meet you all.

You know, essentially adding a door up there, possibly to have a second floor at some point, usage right now.

It's an attic that we may put an office up there.

You know, putting a bigger side porch on, creating bigger bathrooms.

Aesthetically, this is obviously not my area of expertise, but Jeffrey's been great to work with.

You know, happy to answer your questions if there are questions or issues, or I'll do my best to do so, but yeah.

All right.

Okay, do we have any, first we go to questions from the public.

I'm not sure if we have anybody online today or not.

No, okay.

Well, that'll make things faster.

The porch addition that you have in the front.

On the left side there?

Yes, on the left side.

Are you going to have any sort of railing in there?

Just something to maybe sit a couple of chairs or something.

Just access that way.

I was interested, Jeff pulled up pictures from this application.

There was a porch over there that looks a lot different than it does now.

You did send me some current photos.

No, no, that's all right.

I always am just conscious when I'm driving my screen here that I don't make people car sex.

Can you occupy that attic as is?

Well, so you mean, well, I mean, you can get in the attic now.

So we're one of the projects, one of the pieces that, and I don't know if it even shows up, and it's not necessarily relevant to you, but we're putting stairs, like real stairs inside, so we will be able to access it.

But right now it's a pull down, you know, climbing ladder situation.

So the other goal is eventually to probably, you know, put an office up there.

But right now it's not climate controlled up there.

It's, you know, just,

Let's put it that way.

I guess I didn't state my question very accurately.

Yeah.

I mean, it's a little, for some of my height, I think it's about eight feet, so it's a little at the highest point.

So I don't know that I would want

I guess projecting the dormer forward of the eve is so that you get enough space up there to make it worthwhile.

I think that's right.

That is a little bit unusual to see.

Can you talk through the the side porch projecting out so far and I guess kind of on the left there yeah and why I guess there's like the front porch there or like the just the

I guess it seems like there was an opportunity for the dormer to enlarge the front porch, what's labeled front porch there, but the side porch is the one that's really getting extended

So if I, because I got some response from the architect on that.

And I know we don't look at the interior, but the interior is playing a role in where these things are and there's this effort to join these spaces because one of the things that I had asked, I'm sorry, I'm not sure which.

go up, is could this be separated, could this new addition that's coming out of the side here, but it being driven a lot by, so the location of this wall here is really being driven by this effort to open these two spaces, to join them together.

So that's where I said, now as far as this projection, if that's what you're talking about, Gabe can answer that, but that from the architect was, that's why that wall is sitting there.

I mean, my guess is, I mean, I think that front porch is sort of going to sort of stay as is.

And so it's not that big, right?

We don't review a lot of the Historic Conservation District projects, so it's good to review that language.

And specific for Martha Jefferson, the number one item is to encourage one-story front porches in the general Historic Conservation District guidelines.

does suggest that if many of the contributing buildings on the same street have porches, then it is recommended that the design of new, well, that's new residents, includes a porch or a similar form of, or a porch of similar form, similar width and depth.

Do you have a question or you wanna go to, shall we go to comments?

It's a historic conservation district.

Nothing in the design that is in conflict with our guidelines.

Even with the porch, the side porch sticking out so far to the front, the house is still set further back than the average setback of the other houses on the street.

So it's not like it's encroaching down the street or anything.

I agree with that.

The only aesthetic recommendation I would make is that the brackets seem visually undersized for the mass of the dormer that it's projecting.

A quick comment.

It doesn't have to do with, it's not a judgment on the House, but I will say our new zoning code, I believe this House is actually wider than would be allowed by the new zoning code.

So just something to keep in mind as we're reviewing the zoning code in terms of things that are different.

This actually would be non-compliant just because it's too wide.

No building width for residential lots I think is 35 feet maximum and I believe this one is probably going to extend beyond that.

It's non-conforming.

I'm getting out of judgment on this.

It's one of those things that when we're looking at the zoning code that struck me as this is a small house and it's too big according to our new zoning code.

Jeff gave us the motions.

All in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Great.

And also, and thanks, Gabe.

The other reason I said I wanted to bring is you all have only, or at least this BAR's only looked at two conservation district projects, so I figured it was good practice.

So thank you for being in the Petri dish tonight.

OK, the next thing up is to discuss the Greyhound bus station.

We've got folks here on that and I can

What I'm going to do is I'll pull up the photos that I have if I can remember where I put them.

And if you all want to look at any images, but we could certainly scroll through them.

But otherwise, it's not a anything formal to present or show.

Unless you've got something.

Okay, you can.

Great, thank you.

I kept stressing this is not a, this is as informal as it gets.

This is, you know, it's possible that I don't have, Molly's supposed to smack me in the head when I sound confused, so.

I will say, forgive me, but Molly and I were comparing notes the other day and neither of us have taken more than a day or two off in the last year.

So we're both kind of stretched a little far.

All right, I'm going to hand it over to you.

So we have photos.

Thank you very much.

at least, again, an introduction to what might be coming.

But it is not a preliminary discussion.

You guys are not making any decisions.

Nothing you say here is an approval or a denial.

I'm Paul Williams with Baywood Hotels.

We are currently looking at the property to redevelop it.

We had a meeting with Jeff and some other members of the planning department and

In doing that, I'm learning what I think you already know, that the new planning code and what you're looking to do are in a number of ways in conflict with each other.

This site is pretty well designated for the high density type of redevelopment, but if you look at from a historic standpoint, the intent is more to keep the building, but the two don't really work well together.

So I really wanted to reach out to you and have a conversation in terms of what the possibilities are.

Is there a way to work together to figure out how to do this the right way?

find a way to work with and meet what you're looking for and at the same time realize the possibilities of the property and what it could mean because I feel like anybody in my shoes looking to develop this would be in the same place.

The value of the property is really high but if maintaining the building it makes it almost impossible to utilize it to that extent.

So I know there are

some features that, you know, could be maintained.

I mean, I think it's a matter of personal opinion, whether you appreciate the look of the building or not.

And the question becomes whether, you know, could maybe a portion remain and a portion come down?

I mean, obviously for someone like me, it would make more sense to just start over.

maybe take cues from it, respect it, utilize some of the things that make it unique and redevelop it in that way.

The type of property I would intend to put here from a hotel standpoint does that and embraces that.

It's not a brand that is

has to be a certain way or anything of that nature.

They actually try to tie into where you are existing in the town and so forth.

And they play off of that.

So this is the type of property that will work really well.

And they would enhance the positives from here and then grow from there.

To give you an idea, today what was on Main Street is pretty much offices and then as you come in and go around, you know, they have the drop-off where the buses were in the lobby and everybody sort of was.

That's kind of how it functioned.

The upper section or second floor is all really just

bathrooms and locker rooms and back of house type things, mechanical equipment.

So I guess that's why there weren't any windows up there.

From our perspective, utilizing it, I mean, really, that's where you'd want the front door, the lobby, that's where you'd want to enter in.

And the building, as it is right now, isn't very conducive to that.

I mean, we prefer to have more light and more openness, more interaction with the street.

and if you look at the building as it is and you turn the corner on some of the images, you'll see how there's, where the loading was, there's lots of storefront, you have that roof line that, you know, I think there's elements where you can play off of that and you can bring a roof line around, you can do the glass, but it would result in, you know, you'd have to reconfigure the front, as I'm saying.

So,

I mean, we're really early on.

We have a lot of flexibility to come up with a plan that I think can work, but I really think that leads off from your feedback and your thoughts and really to find a way to work together instead of, you know, going back and forth.

I can scroll through the photos I took similar to theirs, what I sent out to you all earlier, so if you want me to go forward.

The other piece of background, one of the questions I had for Paul was what was going on in the front building, the back, and in fact, I know I mentioned earlier, when you look in the windows,

You know, it's like they like the bus people just left kind of this is the back single story section, but it's that the front.

So I'm here actually the back looking in towards West Main.

There's a stair here, the trail is mosaic on the floor, but I was just curious how this space was used.

It's noted in the old Sanborn maps as the restaurant.

I didn't know that it'd be two-story ceiling, but there's an upstairs, there's no windows, and it was used primarily sort of office and storage.

There's not a

There's not something hiding up inside there.

And I didn't know if it was, like I said, it was like a two-story, if there was something grand going on with the restaurant space.

But this has been pretty butchered in the front.

That is actually, it's a different owner, so you'd have to purchase that separately.

Yeah, it's not part of it.

I know there's, somebody has an offer in to buy it right now.

I don't know.

It's something we've explored.

I've looked at it quite a bit.

The point there to me is that you know if there's ever a case for tearing down a building that's designated this would be one of the cases but it's right next to a building that I think is historic and whatever gets built here I would hope wouldn't sort of compromise someone else wanting to come in and fix the resource center and I hope that your designers would take that into account

I mean, there's all kinds of things you could do.

Yeah, I mean, our thought process is, yeah, there would be a tower.

We would pull it as far away from the church as we could.

I mean, I think we're looking at maybe six stories.

It's not terribly.

much larger, but yeah, the intent would be to give room for that and respect that.

I guess one question I guess for staff as this project continues is if there, we are in a good position I think we can, it's fairly

easy to evaluate the character and quality of the building that's there today.

One of the questions Molly and I looked into was when was this built?

What role did it play in?

And I know that there was somebody had mentioned this trailways.

And what I found in the, if you look up Charlottesville Trailways and all that, in 1961 when the

They were going south.

People were going down to sign up folks to vote.

Trailways was the bus system that was going back and forth.

So it was a lot of activity in 61 and protests and things were occurring in segregated bus stations.

This was constructed

after the bus stations had been desegregated.

So there may be some.

I was wondering if some of that, when the individual I was talking to had said, well, I think this may have had something to do with it.

I think because Trailways bus stations were so prominent in 1961 and what was happening,

but this building doesn't appear to have that history.

The other comment that was made to me was that this building, maybe more in the late 60s, this was where, when you came to UVA, you came in the bus station, when you were shipped off to Vietnam, you went through this bus station, so this became this sort of,

I think of the town of Ypres Square, you know, the arches that they would go through out.

So this was a point of exit and entrance that, but that's more experiential than architectural.

So, but I don't, I can't

As someone who used that as a point of arrival and exit during my time at UVA, I don't find it architecturally distinguished in any way.

And I don't find it, I don't have any nostalgia for this building, and I doubt that very many students would have that nostalgia for that building.

So I agree with the notion that Roger was saying as well.

I think it's worth considering as well.

I feel like it needs more conversation and we do need to be aware of it.

That was a good update, Jeff, but if there's any other history that we need to be aware of, but from an architectural standpoint, it's very difficult.

I guess I'll turn the question back around to the board.

So if you want me to read from the guidelines, I'll do so, because I don't know if you've been directed to our demolition guidelines, but we as a board don't sit here and say, oh, I don't have any good memories of this building, or it's worthless, or it's in really bad shape, therefore we should tear it down.

We can only make decisions theoretically based on our guidelines, and that's what our job is.

So the guidelines for determining one of the factors is the historic architectural or cultural significance, if any, of the property, including without limitation, age or structure of the property.

I think everybody here would be sort of like, it's a little old, but it's not the oldest thing we have.

Whether it has been designated National Historic Landmark, National Register, Virginia Landmarks Register, obviously not.

Whether or not to... It is.

Oh, it is?

Okay.

Forgive me.

So it's Virginia?

Really?

Okay, sorry I missed that clue.

Sorry, as I said this morning at 7 o'clock, I wasn't able to read the materials.

It contributes to the district.

But it's not individually?

No.

But still that's significant.

Right.

Whether and to what extent the building structure is associated with a historic person, architect, master craftsman, historical event.

We did desegregate schools in Charlottesville only in September of 1959.

And if this was built only two years later, I'm

Okay, 63.

I'm curious about whether black people could use this bus station.

I mean, I don't know.

That would be something to look at.

Good or bad.

I would just change to that one.

I would say the articles we were finding was, and Trailways was actually, I think, even

located in Charlottesville.

So there was a lot of discussions about the desegregation of the buses and things.

So maybe the bus station was a vehicle for integration, pun intended.

Whether the building or structure or any of its features represent an infrequent or first or last example within the city of a particular architectural style or feature, it's the only bus station except for

what used to be a train station, now used as a bus station sometimes, of that era.

Whether the building or structures of such old or distinctive design, texture, material that could not be reproduced or could be reproduced only with great difficulty.

I would actually say that it meets that criteria.

Nobody would build this building again.

You could laugh at that.

It's a criteria.

The degree to which distinguishing characteristics, qualities, features, or materials remain.

Those are what one of the things that one of the big criterias that we look at and I think your team when they come back needs to be prepared to tick through not just that but every single criteria in the demo and Whatever is there auger?

Is the fact that it's on a contributing structure

a non-starter.

Every demolition request we've gotten has been a contributing structure, so any approved ones.

Yeah, I don't recall if those structures had the same contributing structure to the National Register.

That's not within our review criteria, so I'm not sure if the others had that same designation, but certainly, yeah, as Carl said, there are many, not many, it's been seldom, but there have been structures that were contributing structures that have been demoed.

I guess my point was any demo request that we've ever received has been because it's a contributing structure.

I think there's a few different things that need to be considered with this.

It's a contributing structure.

The building is so specific to being a bus station that

It seems very difficult to try to redevelop it if it was totally protected and you couldn't demo any part of the exterior of the building as its use is right now.

So much of it is on the interior of the site that all the bus station and part of it

isn't really visible from much of the public way at all.

So I guess I wouldn't have a problem in looking at that as being able to be demoed.

I think I'm in the minority in that I find the facade on Main Street to be pretty unique and parts of it to be interesting.

I think if you cleaned up the concrete and the metal bar that there would be, I think the flagpole and the clock and how the brick and the metal lip and the concrete all tie together is pretty interesting.

I might have a little bit different taste in that I wouldn't want to see like all the 1960s buildings demoted and only protect buildings from 1900.

So I think there would be an opportunity to preserve some of the facade and to open the windows up a little more and to have that and to turn it back into, I guess it never was, but to turn that into a two-story lobby and to really, you know,

keep that contributing to that fabric of Main Street, how it engages with the sidewalk and kind of keep some of that history.

I think that Jeff included an old image with the Trailways sign and I think there is an opportunity to kind of preserve some of that facade so I wouldn't want to say

I agree with you in some ways in that I think the most elegant part of the design is the use of line with the very narrow overhang and the way that translates into the vertical of the flagpole and the really spare facade with the clock.

And if you take those pieces, I could see what, and then I guess the other piece that maybe is a little bit more subtle is the way that the canopy from the back projects all the way through to the front, kind of bypassing the brick tower.

But all that being said, I think the facade is also extremely cold to the street, not inviting at all.

You never feel like you want to go,

Take a peek in there.

And so I don't know, like in terms of if you're gonna even, I almost feel like if, I would maybe encourage designer on this site to be maybe inspired by some of those compositional strategies but translate it for a new use rather than any physical artifact being that valuable.

Yes, I'll chime in real quick.

I mean, I think Tyler's got some good points, but I don't feel like it's, I kind of tend to lean with what Brecht just expressed.

I said at the pre-meeting, and I know it's not in our purview because it's on the interior, but I think the Trailways logo on the floor is pretty neat.

I think the big thing to Roger's point is really being respectful of the other buildings.

that are adjacent.

This is also a wide lot and you should definitely be aware of our guidelines for new structures and the ways that they recommend breaking up the building massing to maintain the scale of the lots that were historically in this area.

I guess I was trying to look up other things that had been kind of of this time period.

I couldn't remember what the Violet Crown used to be until I guess it was another it was just a brick movie theater before it was

a department store and I remember the design concept for that was kind of to go back to the old modernist department store look so introducing more horizontal elements and big

you know awning that spanned across the front again just to bring back some of those elements that were lost when they converted it into a movie theater at one point.

So I don't know if you're familiar with the Violet Crown down at the end of the morning.

Yeah I am.

Are you local to Charlottesville?

I'm not local but I've been here a number of times.

So yeah the design concept of the Violet Crown

It's contemporary, but it was meant to kind of bring back some of those elements that were lost from the old department store that had been there.

I'm just I'm thinking that it's I mean I'm looking at an old picture right now where where it is there's the big awning that used to be there for the department store and it kind of looks a little bit like the Greyhound station or the yeah so I don't know if that's something that could be as you guys develop it like maybe at least you can bring back some

I'm losing the ability to talk unfortunately.

I understand where you're getting at.

I think it's doable and I agree with a number of the comments about the clock and some of the things that you've mentioned I think the type of things that do make sense to incorporate into something, into a design

I think the caution I always hear from you all and maybe if you want to express that here is

West Main, at least on the other side of the bridge, has the canyon-like walls.

And so I know in discussion of sort of breaking up those buildings, and I don't really have the best image here for it, but well, so here you do have a, we have a natural break, or for lack of a better word,

an avenue into the back of the lot versus filling up the entire elevation.

I didn't know if you all had any sort of cautionary tale or comments or thoughts from other things that have come through on West Main.

Jody would say permeability and how strongly you feel about that or what they might need to consider or think about.

Yeah, I mean, our approach would really be to utilize the entrance as it is right now.

But you get, I understand what Jeff is saying, it begins to be a challenge because you want

give space to the church.

We've had challenges with projects where they've tried to put a garage entrance on Main Street and that can be really difficult to light properly, to be safe, to break up the pedestrian way.

I'd say one of the real advantages of this property is that you have that access from

I don't think it's an exceptionally long parcel, so I'm not worried about you guys creating

No, I mean really the... It's not that big.

No, it's not that wide.

It's the depth of the property is where it gets tricky, and a lot of that will be masked by the buildings around it, really.

I don't think we've been super strict with the side of building space in the tracks.

Before you say that, that facade would be pretty visible from coming into town from the south on Main Street.

It's going to be very visible.

That was the intent, to try to do some on-site parking, yeah.

The tricky part is arrival.

In other words, if your front door and everything is on main, and then you're coming off of ridge, how do you present the proper arrival to someone with that disconnect?

That's the advantage of maintaining that to where you

Pull off, get them in, arrive in a proper location, and then the car can go parking.

The Marriott across the street seemed to figure that one out.

Right.

I guess the question is, it gets to, well, can I take the parking spaces out in front of there for a drop-off?

Yeah.

Although the Marriott doesn't have, there's not even any street parking in front of them.

Are you talking about the residents in or are you talking about the residents right across the street?

Yeah, it's a little different animal.

That one you have, it's got a deck in the back and you can walk in.

This would be, you'd just be in a garage like there's no, you really would not have a sense, you can have a sense of arrival there if you come around the back.

Here it would kind of be like driving through a parking garage to get to your front door.

I think so.

No, this is very helpful.

It really is.

Well, I just want to thank you all because I said, I mentioned earlier in the media, it's like really not sure how you all would respond to a what if conversation.

And I appreciate this discussion.

It's always good to learn from you guys as well.

Yeah, we'll be in touch.

All right.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Have you ever stood up there before?

What's that?

Well, I promised you guys that.

So, you know, again, I do.

I thank you for that conversation because it's like, I thought some of you might go.

Is this a project?

We'll talk then.

All right, knock this one out.

So on the ordinance revisions where, I mean there's actually some other sections we just, I couldn't get the printer to cooperate, but the really want to look at the process

I'm not entirely fixed on where it is, but it's that what are the things, we talked about this for the last couple of years, what are the things that I can tell someone over the phone, yeah, you're in the right direction, go on, or what do I need, you know, ask them to, well, send me a picture of what you're doing and then I can say yes.

then that typical administrative review and then what comes to the BAR for formal review.

So still some smoothing of the edges is necessary there.

So I am curious what you think of what's written.

What I've tried to do with this ordinance is I have a spreadsheet of the ADC District, Conservation District,

and then the new and just sort of say is everything at least still in there or something that's been taken out why or has it been rearranged.

Some of what concerns me in the there's a lot of

alphabet soup in there.

And sometimes it gets like ADC districts on a couple sections ends up becoming ADC as if it's a catch-all for all design review districts.

So there's little things like that that I'm going through and checking on.

We have the IPP list.

There's

some discussion about what to do with the 104 Stadium Road.

Maybe we remove it from the list now.

I don't know.

That's going on above my level.

But there's a I think one or two IPPs where the structure no longer exists is now the time to clean that up.

I've made the recommendation that I think the one is down there next to Burleigh Moran.

where all the food trucks line up.

And that was raised in 2014, but it was not removed from the IPP list.

And then I've also

suggested that where we have IPPs that are within ADC districts, it's not like there's double coverage.

In fact, it ends up a little bit confusing sometimes.

So I thought maybe that would be, we could clean those up and show that the IPPs stand alone.

And that's valid.

I actually had gone back and tried to reconstruct when did the IPPs get named

and there's an original list, can't remember when and then it was like 90 some properties and then it became 60 and then it became 70 some and so like trying to figure out when things got added or moved around but I do see where some of it was where they just simply got incorporated into ADC district.

So, but again on the ordinance I know that there'll be some, I just hand it out with

The eight and a half by eleven sheets of paper is the letter that was posted with the city talking about the meetings and what's online.

And I can send you those links if you want.

Just let me know.

just looking ahead real quick trying to not work this Thursday and Friday and then that week prior to Labor Day I'm going to try and take some time off so if you've got questions get them to me before but I think you know Molly and I will be we won't be out at the same time so you can reach either of us so any questions about the ordinance or that I could help you with now or

Clear on why I've handed out stuff to you.

I have a question.

Yes.

Yeah, there is a

You can look at a red line version of this over the last, you know, what we've looked at over the last year or so, but what I can, that's what I was saying, what I can tell you is that the stuff that's really important in our current ordinance is in here.

Some of it I've cleaned up, some of it were, like for example, the demolitions, the requirements for demolitions in the ADC districts and the conservation districts,

virtually the same.

So I picked the best wording and said, you know, now it appears once.

But if you were to look at them side by side, you'd see that there's just some, you know, it's not different in intent, but it may be different grammar or different words.

So I brought those together.

But no, there's not a place to look at what the current ordinance is and how it's switched here.

That might be one of the most difficult things about this document is that things that are in the old ordinance are there, but there's a piece of it here, a piece of it there.

So, as I say, I could best, if you've got a question about it, I can find out and let you know, or it may be something I just haven't picked up on.

I've been doing my best on this, but I have not

taking a magnifying glass to it.

Well, I was just gonna suggest that of course if you have questions, definitely email Jeff.

But I might also suggest that in the next two or three weeks if you have comments, thoughts that we ought to consider,

You could email them to me, and maybe I think Carl should also be aware of them.

If we could consolidate comments and then determine, certainly by the September 14th public hearing, if we need to, if there are certain common threads that we feel like should be expressed, that that would be helpful to know by that time.

So I just wanted to have some kind of

No.

No.

One thing you'll notice when you read it, the zoning administrator figures prominently where the current, when I say current, what we have right now refers to the Director of Neighborhood Development.

I think public places even refers to Molly and I, not by name but by position.

But everything is

So you'll see zoning administrator presenting to the BAR, zoning administrator reviewing with the BAR.

That's as a function of that's their job and then there's some provisions in the appendix where the zoning administrator then can delegate responsibilities to various people.

That's where that would occur.

So just try every time you see zoning administrator, think of me.

On the IPPs are you going to give us a list of ones that you suspect

I don't know.

I will.

I actually printed this just before I came over so I haven't checked to see if any of my notes have ended up in here.

Also the section on lighting.

I know you all had

Two years ago we had put forward some ideas and I know Mark Schuyler and Delia Chetta and Tim Moore are continuing to look at this.

I have suggested, you know, the BAR has, we have our criteria that we can apply to

projects that come to ours review, but I said, well, can we just say that applies to the whole city?

And that's when Mark Schuyler a few weeks ago said, well, no, you need to go below 3000K.

And so, but you can take a look at it.

To me, it's still not where one of the planners when they review something that I don't see

You can say this is our city-wide lighting ordinance that, similar to what the BAR has recommended.

I don't see it there yet, but I'm going to, again, take another look at it.

I didn't share with you the signage section.

I'm relatively comfortable with where we are on signs.

Our current ordinance is a little confusing, but what it requires within the BAR districts I think is solid.

I'm not sure what's going to happen with comp signage plans.

Set that aside.

There's the what ifs.

Take a look at it and bounce it back to me.

Since you mentioned the IPP from down below, Bernie Lee Moran, it reminds me something I want to look for is if there's any language that shores up our position to make demolition of a historic structure contingent on an approved

replacement design so we don't have that situation happen?

Yeah, you know, one of the things I was going to look at, too, or I've been saying is we have demolitions of primary structures, demolition of secondary structures.

I feel like the conservation districts, it's a little unclear when

If you can't, we review only what's visible so if it's not visible and they're demolishing it, does it come to us?

Try to tighten that up a little bit.

Again, I gotta read what the edits are and see what they've come up with.

I mean, if we're weighing in on that, I think I would actually not support that.

I represented the owners of Riverdale, which is the one we're talking about, and it was a nonprofit and they would not have cared if it got redeveloped.

They got to demolish, they were able to

The demolition allowed them a different goal, which as a nonprofit was not redevelopment.

It was actually the sale.

And the fact that the subsequent buyers never redeveloped it was of little concern to that owner.

And I wouldn't have wanted for them to have been denied the demolition because there was a lack of a subsequent plan.

I mean, I don't think that will apply everywhere.

I mean, I'm not saying I love to have a, you know, I wish something else were on that corner, but it's also a property rights thing.

If somebody wants to buy something and doesn't develop, I mean, there are a lot of other reasons why that corner has not been developed.

It could have been by now.

I mean, it's not, one was not, it wasn't, the demolition was a means for a nonprofit to be able to sell it.

to a buyer who could have developed it.

Well, I think the short answer to that is it's similar to the conflicts with anything in the ordinance.

You mean it was appealed to counsel?

And I think the discussion we just had in the last half an hour is a good example of that.

I mean, I'm not saying, but I would not want it as a condition.

I would want it as a factor.

If we're dealing with the same property owner who's asking us for a demolition and we're pretty sure they'll come, you know, they want, they represent that they intend to demolish in order to rebuild.

Sure, yeah.

Topic number four is a quick one.

It's sort of a plea for help from me.

Windows are a problem.

I'm getting a lot of inquiries about

people want to replace their windows, my windows don't work, people being our property inspectors, windows have to be operable and people will call and say well I was told I have to fix these, no one in town fixes windows and I know that's not our problem but it ends up being I'm stuck because I'm having

People come to my office and want to know, what can we do?

What should we do?

How do I do this?

How do I solve this?

And the answer can't be, well, BAR, if they say no, appeal to counsel.

I need to, I would like to

generate something more helpful when people ask me about Windows and so I'm not asking to solve it now.

I'm maybe asking from the architect's point of view.

The one thing I tell people is I remember there was the project down on Ridge Street where

They wanted to do the window inserts but they were much smaller than the windows because that's sort of the easy solution and then you put that big fat piece of flashing on a window.

We've seen, for example, 517 Rugby Road where they're coming back with a

I think they're even made to fit really tight into the existing frame such that it doesn't alter significantly that exterior trim.

So I'd like you all to, you know, are there products out there that do a better job than others?

Or is there a type or a style?

Is there a solution out there in your architect world that, you know, I can direct people to?

The second piece would be, can we think about what windows are sacrosanct?

Where does that draw the line?

Or as I advised someone the other day on West Main.

I'm not sure how to answer this one.

Reuse as many as possible to keep that primary facade, at least in the original windows.

And then we can talk about the rest.

I could use some homework from you guys, some research, what do your colleagues think, preservation, architects, what are they saying, what's being done with windows?

Because telling people they have to fix them, it's a dead end.

Not a complete dead end, but it's when I'm dealing with absentee owners and they're saying

then I don't know what to do.

And I'll say well you need to put an application counter to BAR and I just would like to revisit that as sort of ahead of the guidelines discussion I'm going to have in a minute.

Not saying we have to solve it tomorrow or next week but I could really use some input from the design professionals here and then you know again give some thought to what are, where do we say

Tim Moore just talked about sort of having a design ethic or a preservation ethic for various projects.

What is really most important here in helping us make a decision?

And another piece of this, we have buildings on West Main that have 1980s windows in it.

If someone wants to remove those and put in an insert that is more appropriate to that period,

I need to come to you all.

I think I should be able to say, yeah, those are 19.

90s metal windows that were aluminum or vinyl that somebody put in and you want just like this 1980s edition that we just talked about over on West Jefferson.

So give some thought to that.

You know, what does every single window replacement need to come to you all?

So and I want to I want to burrow deeper into that as we go into the fall.

But I figured I would start it with

some homework and you know my things I wrote here yeah no one in this town there's no one who repairs windows what windows are sacrosanct what are acceptable reasons for replacement we have replacement at sash the frame inserts install new windows so of those three options how can we how can we have

a helpful decision matrix that I can work with.

So that's my homework assignment.

Last thing, and I said I would not wrap things up, we handed you 11 by 17 sheets of paper.

Carl and a few others will recognize those.

So when I came on in 2018,

The BAR was in the process of updating the guidelines.

And we have suspended that, well, we've suspended it for a number of reasons, COVID and et cetera, et cetera.

But as Cheri pointed out, with the new ordinance, we'll instruct a lot of things relative to the review of design in the guidelines.

That's going to hopefully, we believe by the end of the year, we're going to have a new ordinance to work with.

What I would like to do is to get out ahead of the revisions with what we can do.

And back in 2018, 2019,

You know, we assembled a bunch of notes.

There's a lot of obvious things.

There's some photographs, there's some grammars, things that need to be changed.

I would like to, and the reason I did it on 11x17 is there's plenty of room to write all over it if you want.

I can send you a Word doc if you want.

I can send you the PDFs.

But Molly and I talked about it today, and we thought the best way, or maybe the easiest way for you all is to say,

here's this right all over it and in one month give me your thoughts you know you don't have to but if you have them turn them in and we will sort of work through those edits and try to compile them and I have funds for a consultant not a lot I also have to use that to update the entrance corridor design guidelines so it's not a substantial amount

Primarily, I'm looking to that to help with some of the best practices stuff, the details where you really need a consultant to sort of weigh in on, or how do we make sure we're conforming to state and federal codes and statutes, et cetera.

But things like, for example, the first thing on my list is chapter one, the introduction.

There's talking about historic preservation of cities, talking about the districts.

There are some photos that probably should go.

There's some references that maybe need to be updated.

But that's something we can read through and make some reasonable updates on.

So I come up with, if I ask you by the September meeting,

Give me what you think.

You're right all over the chapter one.

And then by October

I have included in there is chapter five, but I'm really interested in the cafe spaces.

We've talked about this for too long, but it's really what can be updated, what can be changed, what stuff are people doing that we're just fine with, but it's not addressed in the guidelines at all.

There's nothing in the new code about the cafe spaces, so we can get ahead on that.

By November, I put in here the public improvements.

And that chapter is a little it's always been a little confusing to me because it talks about

things as if it's all public buildings.

But there's stuff in there about murals and art.

That's on a private building.

So I thought when we get to that, and I'll bring it up then, can we separate out what are the things that are the city of Charlottesville when it's building something, or Albemarle County in the city, this municipal building versus somebody's piece of public art or a park versus

you know, a bus kiosk.

So that would be, I'm shooting for November.

Then the other thing that we handed out, I think the conservation districts, that's only like two or three pages and I'm not talking about the, there are the specific things to the neighborhoods, we'll get to those, but I think the sort of as a general document, for example,

There's, you read it, it really seems to be speaking to new buildings.

It doesn't kind of offer a lot for additions or small things or an outbuilding, something like that.

So maybe just sort of like where has it

in its generality created some stumbling blocks that maybe we could overcome.

And then I thought I would say then shooting to next February we can review the demolitions section and then March, April and May of 2024 we walk through our thoughts on site, new construction and rehabilitation.

All of that leading towards

having a consultant ready to come online and fill in any blanks we need, pull it together, help us with the format and the most important thing will be I know city council will say have you had your public outreach, have you met with stakeholders and so that consultant would help in that capacity and then maybe

My idea would be by October of 2024, we've got something going to council for revised guidelines.

That's ambitious, but I just, again, I should have shared this, my apologies, but that's how I'm thinking about it in one month chunks.

Then Molly and I gained it out like, okay, how do we get there from here?

Option one would be like we had done four or five years ago, we met

Yeah, and we met and we would have discussions and we'd go through a chapter, but it ended up, you know, we would have only a couple people maybe get through a page.

It didn't really work, but if we were disciplined and said, we're going to do it, we're going to add a second monthly meeting, and that meeting will be to accomplish the following.

Another way to do it is, as I laid out here, the homework method.

And that's you guys mark these things up, and that's in all of this, and then we meet and kind of go through them, or you can, you know, we can meet during a BAR meeting, we can add an additional meeting, or you

turning your homework and Molly and I continued to compile it and working towards a, you know.

I think she and I are reasonable enough people that we can sort of dissect what you're saying.

If there's any conflicts, we discuss them.

And then the third way to do it is you all say, you know, we're busy, Jeff.

Hire a consultant and revise it.

Possible, but I don't have that much money.

So I think the homework method is ideal.

but it's going to take some discipline from you know you all really do need to do the homework if you're willing and so that's my sort of what I'm laying out for you all I don't want to sound like I'm whining or bitching I just we do need to make these changes the guidelines are supposed to be revised every five years the current guidelines were last revised in I think

Well, it's a 2017 we added a provision about tents.

And so it's fun.

But you know, we are get out of jail card has been you know, we've been waiting for this ordinance change.

So there will be and Cheri's right.

A lot of those things you're going to inform

the new construction and rehabilitation.

So that's why I'm pushing that until the next spring.

But some of this stuff is really a lot of if we rolled up our sleeves, you know,

I went to my mom's in a mountain for a weekend.

We could probably do it, but I don't have that on the list.

So do you have any thoughts about that?

And that's why I handed all this stuff out to you.

Just let's see where the conversation goes.

But my ask to you all is, chapter one, it would be great if at the next BAR meeting, everyone hands me

their notes or whatever format or way you would like to best prepare them and share them.

Um, unfortunately I, I, I, um, I mean the code seems to be the more pressing.

Everything's pressing right now.

I, I, you're right.

I mean I probably could,

That's a valid question.

Bump, you know, everything.

It's not set in stone.

I just know that we need to do it, and it's going to take, you know, whether we start it in October or even November, the methodology in which we do it, I guess, is that

Okay, you all writing notes and and turning them in or would you do you want me to rent this room for an afternoon and You know have continuous pizza and we talk through the whole thing.

You guys are going to hate me.

I mean, I think we need to send you our notes.

I think it might be better if everyone says them digitally.

You distribute them back to us.

We spent a month reviewing them.

I disagree with that part.

I just feel like our board, our regular board meetings are a poor venue for doing that kind of work and especially at the end of a late, I mean we're lucky that tonight is not long, but at the end of an agenda nobody wants to wordsmith a guideline.

I do think though that a kind of a hybrid I think the homework makes sense and then what I would suggest is a is a follow-up meeting for those that have interest and availability to kind of kind of like what we had done before but with the benefit of so you may be able to submit your recommendations but you don't have time for the meeting that's fine

I don't know, something like that.

But I would not tack it on to the end of a meeting.

And to that, that's why I think, you know, the introduction is, to me it's more what needs to be cleaned up in there.

I mentioned this to the Historic Resources Committee the other day, there's, we have

histories of Oakwood and Maplewood Cemetery.

And in those histories, it talks about our Confederate heroes buried here.

So, you know, that's the kind of thing you would say, we need to clean that up.

I don't think the introduction needs to be, you know, rewritten.

I think it just needs to be, you know, is this still valid about sub area?

D, whatever that means.

And in fact, that's one of the things in the introduction.

By the way, if you notice on the maps, it'll say, you know, sub area D. And in the district, there's a list, but it doesn't, not letter, right?

So, but that's just count it down.

Don't worry about on what's contributing and non-contributing.

We'll get into all that.

It really is just some of that language, you know, where we, there's an awful lot of talks about, you know, these wonderful parks downtown and the wonderful statues.

We had the discussion when we talked about statues two years ago.

So things like that.

So it's not a heavy lift on the introduction.

And I think cafe spaces

I think generally one of the biggest weaknesses of the guidelines is that there are a lot of suggestions, I guess you could call them guidelines, that are enumerated in the introductions to the chapters that are not included in the actual numbered guidelines.

Yeah I mean a lot of it is what we know

We just haven't, it's not said well.

So it's not changing anything.

It's not suddenly altering what someone can do in the Martha Jeff neighborhood.

It really just is, I mean like there's one thing about paint.

What does it say?

Oh, you can't paint masonry.

All right, so but someone wants to paint their house, you know, bright green.

Am I supposed to look at it or not?

I don't know.

But I mean, we can kind of it to help kind of clarify some of those tasks.

Somebody asked me today, what what what do I do?

And I said,

explain to people what they don't need to worry about and then you know that it takes it's almost exhausting sometimes telling someone don't worry about don't worry about don't worry about but so yes I think some of the clarity would be really helpful it's it's not changing you know

our preservation ethic.

That's all I had for you all.

What can I answer for you?

So you want us to review, I still want to go back to the procedure because I'm not sure we decided on that, but you want us to definitely review one by September.

You guys can tear them all this weekend if you wish.

You know, it may be just sit down and I got lots of red pens, I'll hand them out.

But Roger raises a good point, you know, what's the priority?

The ordinance

is going to move quickly.

And it may have a life of its own that I have very little influence over.

So I think that I'm putting a lot on Carl's shoulders.

And someone said to me last week, Jeff, you're holding the fort.

And if we don't get it right, I think I said, well, I'll talk to Carl about that.

I need Carl in the fort with me.

But Carl is here because he's the representative of the Planning Commission and this is first going to them.

So it's not inappropriate to have a conversation with Carl about what you see.

But I think if there's something glaring and jarring or something just really is, but if you don't have time to dissect this thing, I understand, I understand.

So I would say, I would love if you could take a look at the introductory factor by September, but you know, if we don't get to it, we don't get to it, but we, at some point I need your help to apply some discipline to this.

I think to your question he said the chapter 5 by October and chapter was it 7 by November and I know you went through the whole plan but maybe if you can email if we want to if we are adopting that we want to stick by I just want to say as a member I thank you Jeff for initiating this you know it is more work maybe because a lot of projects seem to be paused you know no meeting last month

Very brief meeting, very few applications.

Maybe there's a little pause going on because the zoning ordinance.

So maybe this is a great time for this.

If we got lucky and had a few other short meetings, I think we would all say, yeah, we can spend another hour on our couch, you know, reading this.

I mean, I don't think I don't think this is a heavy lift.

So please stop apologizing because

We need to do this.

I'm the grumpiest one of everybody, I promise, but we need to do this.

With regard to the process, I hate to disagree with Carl, because he always makes a lot of sense, but I think that would be a heavy lift for me to go through this and then review eight other comments.

I'm not saying all of us will have comments on every page,

What I think I would prefer is for us to submit them to you and Molly.

Maybe you have a week or two to suss through them.

Like if six of us say the same thing, then you can get a consensus that, yeah, that's like solidly needs to be changed.

Or if Cheri's over in a corner by herself saying something should be changed, maybe that means

I'm the only one and maybe it shouldn't, but you could read our comments, kind of do what Carl wanted us to do, you know, develop them into discussion points and then I would say meet maybe before or after special session, whatever, and I think there's nothing to substitute for

A real deliberative process with people there at the same time, which we haven't really been able to zoom doesn't allow you to do it very well.

But, you know, in the same room, expressing opinions, you hear, you know, I come in dead set.

I don't like this chapter at all.

And I hear Carl talk and my

opinion is completely flipped because he's made sense and he's completely influenced you know what I think and that's what I really do believe in that process so as much as I can mark this up on my own I still think we should come together and discuss it and I think it'll go quickly if we're just doing you know a chapter a month or you know shorter chapters to a month or whatever it is.

And these are yours, and that's why I maybe overemphasize that you're not required to review the zoning ordinance.

But these guidelines are yours.

And in fact, the code specifically refers to you all keeping them updated and advising.

Now, counsel will ultimately have to bless them.

But they are ours to modify and amend.

But I think you're right.

I think you're going to find the first couple chapters pretty simple.

It's going to be like, you know, there's nothing, it just needs a fresh look.

I agree with Cheri that just a simple itemizing the comments that we send, and I don't think it even has to be as complicated as

keeping it just concise would be enough for us to delve in and have a kind of enriched dialogue that we're talking about.

I think if there's things where we disagree in the comment feedback, that's what we need to focus on and hash out during the work session.

My wife will talk about how you need a companion to do something, like that pile next to my chair in the living room.

She's like, I know I need to sit down with you and say, let's go through that.

And that's sort of where we are with this.

You all can help me force, put us where I'm like, OK, Molly, they did it.

Holy crap, they all read these things.

We now have to do something.

help us force our hand.

I hate track changes.

I know a lot of people will say, oh, put in a word doc.

I love track changes.

But if you would prefer that, I can send you the word doc and you can type it in.

Yeah, we could.

I wonder if that's too.

I'm not that.

I'm 60.

I don't know what you're talking about.

We tried Google Docs.

I liked it.

Right, because we found it.

Then wasn't it something with the email?

I don't know.

I do remember some people didn't have a Google account.

Having gone through this before, I definitely recommend not

The graphic because there's weird stuff like inset text and the images I think some of the biggest work is actually the poor examples that are used and it would be really helpful for to make a suggestion of either a better example or definitely don't use this or you know what that's going to be

I think one thing that's going to be difficult is actually finding a time for us to meet and I think because we do have to meet in public and it has to be scheduled ahead of time,

Maybe that's something we start thinking about is, you know, send out some form or something that we can all find dates that work.

And Roger did nail it.

Things are going to, and you're going to find, you're going to have a lot of meetings.

There's some meetings coming up that are conflicting with possible BAR dates.

So I think it's more this process and more the commitment to it.

We know it's coming.

Maybe the calendar's got to be tweaked a little bit.

But I appreciate your enthusiasm to help out.

If I could just give one.

So Molly's been here with, you know,

finally fully dove into the position and she's really, she's taken it by the horns and I have told her she doesn't have to be at the BAR meetings but I do think it's helpful that you all get to know her and work with her but so much stuff is going on under the water and one of the big things that Molly and I have been embarked on is

to understand what we have with all these historic surveys throughout the city.

And I think Molly, we showed it last time or you shared it, but you can send out that link again.

She's creating a map that will come and explain so that they can access it and you have to speak into the green thing.

So I created a map through Esri, it's through a web, it's a web app, map of the city and you can select on the structure and up pops a link and it will go to the city database where all the historic surveys are.

Right now it's really difficult to kind of go through our site to find those historic surveys so this kind of makes it easier.

In my mind I see things spatially so it's

That's excellent.

So excited about that.

It actually reminds me, one question that is of interest related to the bus station is that there were two historic structures there that were demolished, presumably to make room for the bus station.

A lot of them don't, the addresses have changed.

As some of you know, your addresses shift.

So first thing is trying to align things up with what's the proper address so that it stays with that tax map parcel.

We've also got stuff all over the place.

And if any of you, if you get tired reading the ordinance or you get tired reading the guidelines,

We'd love help testing out or just going through the list of things that we have and just trying to account for it.

And if you're really, really bored, I have boxes in my office of surveys that haven't been scanned.

So this is a huge project that we're

I think.

And then, maybe that way.

This is a long one.

What about the ones that we did when we, the new ones that we did when we adopted districts?

I'm getting to those.

So these handwritten notes, not everyone has these, but these were some where people went back and did deed research on these.

It's really interesting stuff, but at least we're now making available what we have and

I said, a lot of stuff's pretty wild.

Some of these even have anecdotal notes while they were talking with people about, oh, so-and-so just said this about it.

So cool stuff.

This is just kind of a start.

I envision having this, and then one with maybe old photographs, and then even the applications.

So everything for your house right there, and you can access it easier.

That'd be awesome.

Thank you for your patience and your time.

Okay.

So it's not going to be part of the meeting?

Then they'll take some amount of time after we turn in our homework.

Right.

Yeah, let's try that.

I mean, I know I threw a lot at you.

I'll circulate my list.

I think Roger's point's good.

I might bump everything forward a month and let's just see what the next few weeks bring us with

You won't even see me next September.

That's right.

All right, you got us to 730 or before 730.