Board of Architectural Review Meeting   4/18/2023

Yeah, it used to be, yeah, sorry.

With a free meeting, you could, we just haven't thought about it in so long.

But yeah.

So yes, we can, you just don't have to listen to us chewing.

But yeah, it's not closed.

I think it's like no one's ever, ever, ever come into one, but we could touch base about if you have any questions about it, I can fill in the blanks.

launching my meeting and then be online.

So now I can share my screen if I have to.

And you have as well.

I have this as an agenda.

Yes.

Yes.

You ready?

OK.

Welcome, everyone, to the regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review.

We don't have a huge number of items, but when we get to them, staff will introduce each item, followed by the applicant's presentation, which should not exceed 10 minutes, then ask for questions from the public, followed by questions from the VAR.

After questions are closed, we'll ask for comments from the public.

and members of the public are each allowed three minutes to ask for questions and three minutes to offer comments.

Please speak into the microphones since that's how we're heard online and identify yourselves and provide your address.

Comments should be limited to the BAR's purview, that is regarding the exterior aspects of the project.

Following our discussion and before we take action, we'll see if the applicant would like to have up to three minutes to respond.

Tonight, the first item on the agenda is matters from the public that are not on the agenda or any comment on any of the items that are on the consent agenda.

And a preview of the consent agenda includes, number one, approval of meeting minutes for November 15, December 20 of 2022, January 18, and February 22 of 2023.

Second item on consent agenda is 800 East Market Street This third item on the consent agenda is a SUP recommendation for 218 West Market Street The fourth item on the consent agenda is a certificate of appropriateness for 506 Park Street

Are there any members of the public that would have something to speak on not on the agenda or on any of those consent agenda items?

No attendees?

Okay.

I move to approve the consent agenda.

All in favor?

Aye Any opposed?

No?

Okay.

Well, for any of you that might be here for projects on the consent agenda, you're free to proceed.

You have an evening in front of you.

You're also welcome to stay and have fun with us.

I'd like to introduce this, and Kurt's here can get into the details, but this CO 810 West Main Street, which is the train station on West Main

It was built in 1885.

It is a contributing structure in the West Main Street ADC district.

And the request is to construct a rooftop canopy on the, I believe, the southwest side.

Staff didn't see any issues with this, but it was

I think we, because we wanted to have something on the agenda.

No, but I think that, what are we saying here?

I should discuss how the canopy addition will join the existing structure and just sort of some of the details of incorporating it into, you know, the existing.

When I first looked at drawings trying to determine that elevation of, there's the, this is hers, but there's the mechanical structure to the

on the elevation here on the left just to the right of the main building is there's a mechanical structure that was constructed later and then this will be added to it.

So I was trying to figure out exactly how that all fit together but otherwise I don't have any issues with it and you have any questions for me?

Thank you, I'm Kurt Kiesecker, principal of BRW Architects, located about a block away, sorry about that, at 112 4th Street Northeast, and I'm happy to present our design ideas for the addition for a roof canopy over an existing dining deck.

At the train station, as probably all of you know and remember, this was an outdoor dining space that had been informally covered with a variety of either wood or tent-like structures kind of haphazardly in the past.

And so the building owner has decided to make that covering more permanent to essentially enliven and extend the season that that restaurant use, future restaurant use, could animate the urban space.

Our response to that request is to do a couple of things and there were some limitations working with the existing building that we kind of had to think about.

Obviously we wanted to follow the guidelines and make the new roof canopy different from the historic architecture so we kind of are using exposed steel that's painted.

and a polycarbonate panel system very similar to the one that's on Little Star.

And I'm sorry, I can't remember the name of the new restaurant at Little Star location on West Main, but they changed their name recently.

That's it.

Thank you.

And so same polycarbonate system, different color for the painted steel.

So the material choices were related to simplicity and kind of expression of that and industrial kind of utilitarian setting.

We decided to align the columns.

The placement of the vertical columns is determined by a series of columns that are actually on the lower level that were added some time ago when the floor of this roof area was

kind of rebuilt and made more solid and so we are our engineer we had asked that we could try to avoid x-bracing on this roof canopy structure and to do that we needed to align our new columns with the columns that are down below so they'll go into the foundation and then we're going to use

kind of moment frames or moment connections at the beams and columns to make rigid connections.

That holds well for three of the

you know the three column locations that you see and also I should note that our new columns go behind the existing parapet walls so there's no structural interruption there on the exterior of the facade but our connection that Jeff had mentioned in the or Mr. Werner had mentioned in the report to the existing building is a

a connection that allows us to get some stability to the roof structure.

That connection needs to occur where the framing for that mechanical area that he mentioned is located and the framing for the mechanical area which is a new addition to the original cargo area here or warehouse area.

Our structure aligns with the framing and then a parapet goes up from that to kind of conceal the existing mechanical that's not part of our space.

So that mechanical area is existing.

I think other notable pieces are that we have slightly sloped the canopy.

It's higher on the parking lot side of the building, slightly lower on the rear track.

I think that's the east-west track.

that will tie into roughly existing locations.

And we did suggest moving the stair for a couple of reasons.

One, the existing stair location is technically too close to the other exit back into the building to kind of count as a second means of egress.

So to kind of have a more distinct and different second means of egress, it's better to have that stair further away from the other door.

It also, there's a little wedge space between this building and an off property CSX owned kind of utilitarian building so we thought it would be a nice place to sneak that stair in and then we can open up the rear facade toward the tracks.

The rear facade has a big fume hood existing piece of equipment that's there and some other mechanicals so I'm not going to claim that that facade is

Historic or beautiful but the existing stair location covers up the door and kind of an archway and so we think by moving to this blank end of the building it'll be a little more suitable.

It's hard to tell from our renderings and maybe hard to tell from our photos but this entire part of the building is painted brick existing.

You may have already known that and so we think the repair to the existing canopy

We can reuse some of the railing, kind of just moving the pieces so the coping piece and the railing that was original to the build out will just take from where we want to make our new opening and bring it back.

It's kind of a little bit of a flip around infill and then repaint to match.

Other than that, I think the only thing that's notable is that we've got all our lights, some fans probably, and some heaters to extend the seasons into the shoulders under the canopy and they hang from purlins that will be built to conceal the conduits for all those pieces.

So what we're trying to do is not make that a

Cluttered mess of electrical conduit.

And I think that's all I can add to Jeff's report.

I'm happy to answer any questions.

Great.

Thank you, Mr. Kiesecker.

Yes, sir.

I wonder if there are any questions first from the public.

We still have no attendees.

Got a question about the stair.

Yes, sir.

It is not.

There's an interior stair that leads to dining space inside on the second level.

I think it does have a landing at the top.

At the bottom, I think it'll connect to the sidewalk in the rear area.

Oh, it may be cut off a little bit, I'm sorry.

That graphic's a little bit strange, but...

Yeah, the 13th of height.

I should check the dimension, but yeah, we have planned on moving it, so I think it conforms now.

It's a little deceiving how tall it is because the parapet wall is obviously taller.

But we'll check that.

I know the building code official will check it.

We're actually thinking about using two angles that kind of will be able to change and that's how we're going to be able to get the slope on the roof as well.

So we're building in a little bit of adjustment with

and that'll let us make our holes where we want to make them and they're only there to support that polycarbonate panel that needs support about every two feet to 30 inches, 32 inches so they're not structurally significant so I think we can pull that off.

and that's a translucent translucent translucent panel yeah it'll

I wish I had a sample.

I realize that I didn't bring one, but it is exactly the same material that's used on the Little Star building, so it'll let light in, but it has, you know, it's not clear.

It's diffuse.

But it's not white.

It is white.

And it will hopefully have a little glow in the evenings when we turn the lights on, just kind of by default.

It is hoped that it will provide a little bit of shade just like the one on West Main does to in the summer months because I think that's been part of the problem this space is.

I wanted to just clarify something about the slope just to make sure I'm reading the drawings correctly.

It reads to me like the roof edge on the, let's call it the,

It's slopingly, evenly towards the tracks.

That's right.

Yes.

Yep.

The only other question that I had was about the lighting, because this was a point of discussion with Little Paint, or Little Paint, Little Star, where initially they proposed some lighting that was LED and full color range.

And I want to just understand a little bit more about the lighting intentions.

And I don't know if there's any lighting

Yeah, we haven't specified the lights exactly.

We know they're probably going to be linear and they will be LEDs.

We were going to do full cutoffs to have all the light go down and by glow I mean it's probably only off the kind of reflected light from the tables and such that are below just in general, but we're not going to

All those are serving the tenant space that is unoccupied now, so there's no fit-out plan specifically for the future restaurant use.

I think the

So yes, maybe depending on how they need their service to be provided in the future.

And I think we'd have to come back to you for that.

The sequence of events for the owner was to try to create an amenity space that would help attract a tenant to the restaurant space and then have the restaurant go through a series of approvals as needed.

There are some things that exist in front of this building like a concealing fence around one of the doors and all kinds of things.

miscellaneous knickknacks that are kind of attached to the building.

And so once they decide what their final approval improvement plan is, I think they probably have to revisit.

Any other questions from the board?

Comments from the public?

Probably not.

Seems perfectly fitting with our guidelines.

Looks like it'll be a nice project.

Yeah, we discussed this previously.

I mean, it's a really nice, quiet insertion here.

Would anybody like to make a motion?

Jeff, that'll be fine if we have them submit that for the record.

Give it a try.

Having considered the standards set forth in the city code, including the ADC district design guidelines, I move to find that the proposed patio canopy at 810 West Main Street satisfies the BAR's criteria and is compatible with this property and other properties in the downtown ADC district.

And the BAR approves the application as submitted.

And the West Main ADC district.

With the following condition, the lighting shall be full cutoff.

as described in the applicant's presentation, shall be dimmable, shall have a CRI of 3,000 or less.

Colored temperature.

Thank you.

Wow.

Colored temperature of 3,000 or less and a CRI of at least 90.

Not less than 80.

Not less than 80, preferably 90 or more.

Great.

All in favor?

Aye.

Any opposed?

Sorry, I see where I got the West Main and the denial, but we didn't get to that.

I also remember why, sorry, I've been the last four days helping my daughter move up in Annapolis and I'm ready to fall over, so my focus is limited.

But the fact that I know you all had talked with Kurt about this would have been some development and so

That was one of the reasons why the fact that there had been those discussions, it's appropriate to then have the discussion instead of putting it onto the consent agenda.

Next on the agenda, and I just wanted to answer Ms.

Long's question.

She asked me about are our preliminary discussions open, and yes, they always have been.

I think I haven't thought about it in so long, but we recall we used to meet in the neighborhood development conference room, and yeah, it's open to the public, and I think just to maybe to help with what we discussed in there, just from my quick notes, you all can add, is ask if there are any questions on the consent agenda, anyone's going to pull anything.

She did.

Well then I'll still can say it.

We talked about why because some of the BAR members hadn't reviewed a special use permit request before the recommendation of what we you know how the BAR approaches those things just kind of a quick talk about that.

I mentioned that the zoning rewrite for the city is continuing and we're getting into the details about you know evaluating how

The BAR's guidelines criteria and that intersection with with what's required or allowed in the zoning ordinance.

So we're getting into the details talked about you know that analysis and some of the things we're trying to anticipate and

On 104 Stadium Road, just mentioned that the hearing will be on May 15th.

That'll be the appeal with council.

And primarily the discussion is about the IPP designation and that an IPP is not

being on the National Register or being eligible for the National Register is not a requirement for being designated locally as an individually protected property and so just the importance of while we do refer to the National Register criteria that is not the deciding factor and the concern that we just not

that we don't look at IPPs that are not on the National Register as disposable when it comes to other projects.

And then there was the other question about the vacant lot next to 104 Stadium Road

really that that's not relevant to the IPP and so I'm not focusing on it in my appeals.

So that was generally what was discussed in that meeting.

So unless you all had any.

So the next thing I had I wanted to

Take a little bit of time tonight to go through some sort of BAR 101 on a couple things and to take care of some housekeeping.

For one, I will ask this one up front because it's a simple one, but I've had two requests in the last week over the university fraternity house area putting in artificial turf instead of grass.

To both I said no, not in the front yard at least.

But not really anything in the guidelines.

I couldn't really find anything that said no artificial turf.

But I think it's reasonable to say that that's not something we would want visible from the public right of way.

That seems to be an anthem to sort of what we're trying to achieve.

But I was going to ask you all any opinions about that.

Yes.

I drive down Rugby Road twice a week at least and there's nothing but dirt in the front of those fraternity house yards and I don't know what would be better but we can't require them to not walk around on the grass.

I'm not sure I completely agree.

There may be some other solution that you architects may come up with but it's really not an attractive look.

I have to say it seems like I know it depends on the product but I mean there are high-end neighborhoods that do this out west.

I'm a little grossed out by it.

I mean, the idea of that grass is, I guess it'll get rained on and the sun will get on it.

But for some odd reason, the idea of growing grass seems like it would, I don't know.

Just fraternity brothers are gross.

But I'm not sure.

I kind of agree with Roger on this one.

Or yeah.

Ron.

Ron.

Ron.

Sorry.

Sorry.

I've had a weekend.

The brain is obviously not working.

I guess I can offer a recent project at the university where we did install artificial turf in an event space, certainly located in the backyard of a National Historic property.

It's still not in the front yard, but it was subject to DHR review, et cetera, et cetera.

So that's a circumstance where the university's done that recently.

and I kind of, I see Ron's point, you know, what's worse, just dirt or solo cups or fake grass.

Are there no products that look better than what I recall as AstroTurf or anything like that?

They've got lots of good products.

Yes, it has gotten a lot better and in the right location I've certainly come around to it.

It definitely still makes me queasy.

On the other hand, I think it'd be a little bit of a

It'd be a little bit of how are they using it?

Is this like an eight-foot wide strip or is this like, you know a 40 by a hundred foot front yard that is really prominent in the neighborhood.

I think there's Could be some room for interpretation there.

So it's not a hard no for me, but

The new one they put in at Monticello High School is bamboo.

Is that pellet rather than recycled tires?

Let's see, Roger and I, as fathers of CHS athletes, probably have more of that field came home after games.

It doesn't sell doesn't get in your cleats like the rubber.

And they also have like sand ones.

because I think it doesn't wear well.

It's great.

The first couple of years, the field at Charlottesville is all pushed down one way.

I don't even know.

You probably haven't seen it in a couple of years.

It's just terrible.

And I mean, it hasn't stood up.

It takes so much.

So it would really be a product.

So I don't know.

That was my first thought is it'll look good for the first couple of years, and then it just looks

So if I can sum it up then, maybe some research on the product, the location, sort of the context that it's in.

I think to say as a front yard of a fraternity on Rugby Road, you know, going up to the house,

You know, I mean, it's better than dirt.

I don't know why they don't get the honey dust like, you know, do you have it on grounds?

But yeah.

All right, that's helpful.

So I will encourage some creative thinking, but not a front yard, but some creative integration we might consider.

So next thing on the agenda I had, I had informal discussion windows.

I'm exiting that because we'll save it for another day.

I did have a meeting, we had a meeting scheduled for tomorrow evening in this room about the National Register nomination.

The draft has been completed and we were going to be presenting that to the community

a little bit of a snafu on the notification and THR and who was on first and nobody was so we're gonna bump that meeting to a later date so anybody out there that's watching there will be no meeting tomorrow night on April 19th regarding the downtown mall nomination and I was just let you all know.

The second thing and I let me share my screen if we can figure out how to do it.

Why can't it?

Why won't it let me?

I know.

Here I am.

Okay.

So I'm going to open this one.

Well, while you're doing that, maybe I'll give a brief summary of, there have been two meetings of the Downtown Mall Committee that's been underway and Jeff has, Jeff attends those and I do as well at the appointment that you guys so graciously gave me.

The first two meetings have dealt with

Getting a historical background, a shared historic background of the mall itself, the pre-history and the initial decision to have them all designed.

And then the last couple of weeks, a week and a half ago, Beth Meyer gave a history of the design process itself and a lot of the design thinking behind the Halprin design.

And it was helpful while that's, I still learn something about that every time I hear it, but it was definitely helpful to get everyone in the group, which is 28 or 25 people, a bit of a shared history.

And so I think that that's been the groundwork.

We have not gotten to the point of making specific recommendations.

So I circulated a letter that hopefully the B.A.R.

will agree to sign.

We are, as you know, a certified local government, and I'll explain later what that means, but it makes the city eligible for certain federal and state-funded grant requests.

Prior to COVID, we've been, you know, a lot of the work that we did, we were able to split using grant funding.

So I think over the last 10 years, we've, I think for every city dollar, we spent some like 80 cents in grant funding.

So we've, we've, we've taken, or we've been, I'm sorry, for the work we've done with grants, we've, we've got a really good

you know, value out of that program.

So this year I requested two grants and I'll explain them.

The first one was a lot of people don't realize, you know, McKee Block, that's where the Jackson statue used to be just to the west of the county courthouse.

We

When we did the archaeology up here at the Levy site at the First One Tavern, we realized that the foundation of the 1890s house that was knocked down in the 80s was right there.

And there's a brick wall that goes around the Levy block.

the same thing that goes around over there at McKee Block.

So we'd always wondered what was the elevation?

Had it been raised up?

And what we found at Levy's site suggests maybe the McKee Block Foundation is right there.

And so what we did, and let me go to just some of the images real quick.

And actually this is

If you can see, this is at the bottom.

This is from the Swan Tavern levee site.

So this is that footprint of the 1890s building.

You see it's only like about six inches below the surface.

So the levee site, or I'm sorry, McKee block site,

So this would have been, that's where the Jackson statue was, and you can see this is where the levee block was.

Primarily four buildings, one, two, three, and four, that were there from the early 1800s up until about 1915, 1916.

And what we, just as you can see from the

So you can see today this is looking back across the park and you can get an idea of what McKee block looked like.

So this is a small request.

It's only a $10,000 project asking the state for five, we'll fund five, and to try to do ground penetrating radar just to determine if any of the footprints are there.

If there's anything extent there that we would want to take into consideration when we have

the plan redesign of the park which will come at some point in time.

Work with Ben Ford same as when we did the stuff at Penn Park might do some minor excavation just to sort of fact check some things but that's that request to the state and then the other one let's see if it yeah good the other request and you all have been following I know I've sent you pictures of

what's going on at the Swan Tavern, I've been calling it Swan Tavern Archaeological Site.

There's the Levy Building and you can see the existing annex.

So this is all coming down and the new courts that you all approve the design for.

But a requirement of the demolition

back in 2021 was an archaeological examination of the site.

Typically a phase one would be sort of shovel pits at intervals, but because of the report of burials on the site, that's why you see the more extensive clearing than typically.

But the advantage in that is it's revealed a lot more up there than anybody had any

Nobody anticipated what has been found.

This is essentially the footprint of the Swan Tavern is underneath where Redland Club is, but we know from, and I think I have an image in here, excuse me for scrolling too fast, but the, we know that the

We know where Swan Tavern was.

We know that there were buildings associated with it.

But they're finding a lot more there than just bits and pieces of glass.

I mean, this is one of the

The archaeologists put it so much better than I can, but this is a site that's probably dating to the 1750s, 1760s, 1770s, the earliest, and into the early 1800s.

It's very likely that one of the structures

is associated with a dwelling and most likely that of enslaved individuals.

So the finding of personal items there, the ceramics, a lot of animal material, faunal material, as I'll say, bones, shells, things.

So there's a story to be told at this site.

and while the county funded the archaeological work as part of the project, the need to evaluate the materials is the next step and that would be a really detailed evaluation of the artifacts.

Ben Ford, I've been working with, the in-depth analysis is what he said.

So this grant request is for $10,000 to match $10,000 from the city

for $20,000 in-depth analysis of the artifacts.

It's probably, in fact, not probably, we know that $20,000 is insufficient, but it's sort of the max where I am with procurement, but it does allow us to get the ball rolling to do that evaluation.

I think you know and again it was all in there the stuff they're pulling out of it's pretty neat you've seen the photos and so all I'm asking from the BAR is would you agree to let Mr. Gaskin or sign off on a letter of recommendation

for support of these grants.

Anybody have any reservations?

Not yet.

None have been located.

My gut tells me they're there.

It's not where they've looked yet.

It could be 50 yards away.

I visited the site and talked to the archaeologists.

It was pretty interesting.

This is what a grant request looks like.

Sorry.

So what they explained to me was that this one here was actually based on the Jefferson Street.

And the records show that there was a lean-to shed structure along the back of it.

And so what you're seeing here,

are in ground pits, or sometimes called meat sellers, which often times, you know, have been associated with these units, and so you can almost start to see individual rooms or something like that across the back there.

It's just an early way of preserving

Originally, it came from literally root cellar, right?

You would preserve potatoes and things like that, onions, whatnot, down in the earth where it's cooler.

Eventually, it transitioned into a secure space where personal items could have been stored.

Probably not like lockable per se, but you would know if somebody rifled through there and went in your stuff.

I don't know if they found lots and lots of artifacts in there, but

Yeah, what's interesting too is that, you remember, this is like the first

This is Charlottesville day one and it really is that's what's extraordinary about it and that it's intact in the sense that you have Swan Tavern located here you can see the light blue that's roughly the footprint then there's that shed roof rear

there's also a structure that was here.

We found, I keep saying we, collectively, they found this small structure here which had a brick floor and a cellar being anything underneath the floor, not on the ground but not a basement.

There's a structure up here which has been hard to discern and then there was a stable

Barnshed described in early insurance documents and that's that red structure roughly 10 by 20 that's had, I mean it's extraordinary what's come out of it.

It's thousands and thousands of

of items, and it's personal items.

It's not just broken pottery and glass.

There are, and again, the preparation of the animals, the food, the butcher.

It's pretty wild.

They're like, oh yeah, this is a pig tooth.

This is that.

Here's a pipe.

Here's a bead.

Here's hat pins.

So there are domestic items there.

And what

what's really needed is to sort of take instead of a phase one which would say we found a lot of stuff here from you know the early the middle to late 1700s to early 1800s is to begin to evaluate and put the pieces together and I think hopefully it's going to lead to a lot more research that can be done on this but

That's what the goal is.

I know that I think they're going to be working there this week and next, probably going to be wrapping up soon.

But this will be the next phase in all of this.

And, you know, I'll just say here, you know, the county was, you know,

the city-county arrangement.

The county's got the lead on this.

They've been supportive of that work and what has been necessary.

I can't say enough thanks to Frazier Nyman and his folks up at Monticello.

They've sent a small team down there that's been assisting and also the archaeologists

Association in the state.

I'm not sure what it is.

There have been volunteers that have come in from other parts of the state and contributed their time.

So it's been a really interesting site.

But it is, to my knowledge,

Nothing like this has ever been evaluated in Charlottesville.

There's nothing this old at UVA, certainly.

And they may have looked up something like this up on the mountain.

But as far as within the city of Charlottesville, a site like this, I'm not aware of anything like this ever being evaluated.

So that's that.

All right.

All right, good.

I'll take care of that.

All right, so the next up I wanted to, we have coming up, this is our roster, so four of you are at the end of this year

are up for renomination, if you wish, or reappointment.

We know Kevin and Roger are both completing terms of some prior individuals, that's why it's the abbreviated time, but wanted to just put that out there.

The four of you can apply again if you would like to.

I know it's a long way away, but we know time flies.

And I don't want to get to October of next year and we're suddenly scrambling and spend six months, you know, short handed.

So if you've

If you're interested, you can talk about, you know, let everybody know or if if not, we can start to do some recruiting because the we do appoint positions by a particular expertise.

Mr. Gasteringer is up in a year and a half.

but he is not eligible so be thinking about someone in that landscape architect position so there's a year and a half to beat the bushes and then the other four you all have some time left and can be reappointed so I wanted to just put that out there so we don't forget and then as I mentioned we are a certified local government

that is a federal and state program and in order to be a CLG the requirements are we have historic ordinance, historic districts, we establish a review board, you all.

So we've done all of the things and we continue to do the things that are required.

The annual report I have to prepare.

We continue to survey things you know we just you know talked about some spending on that.

But the reason I have it up here is because one of the requirements

is that you all have to have some amount of training.

I know in the past they've had where I think the city attorneys come and talked about historic preservation or different things, but and then this is just a list of from I think two years ago some of the things you know people have turned in and you all most of you have professional learning requirements so you know those work if but so I put out there that it does

In fact, a couple of years where we've had quite a few B.A.R.

members with, you know, no, no, nothing to fill in the blanks.

Fortunately, you know, there's been some that have taken 20 hours of stuff so it can kind of hide you in the back.

But I really want to urge you to, you know, even if it's the, you know, just do some get that training.

Talk to me about it.

You know, it's part of our requirement as for being a certified local government and

So that's my plug on that.

As I just mentioned, you all are appointed by the criteria we have.

We have nine members, and we are in the process of the zoning rewrite, and that allows us some, not entirely, but we have some opportunities to

to address some of the administrative stuff.

So if there are things that we could, you know, the zoning revision is not intended to be a rewrite of everything.

It's really getting at the land form, built form.

But there are, you all are one of the four key bodies in the city.

So, you know, you are governed by city code.

So, for example,

There's a provision there we have a licensed landscape architect or a licensed contractor.

I think we would all agree that it'd be great to have both.

But certainly, I don't see them as interchangeable.

And I'm

I'm putting this out here for you all just to sort of get you thinking.

I think at some point we might need to have a longer work session discussion about this, but these are the kind of things where I'm in the process of

I have an opportunity to insert some things into the discussion and so it's, if you all have any thoughts, send them my way kind of thing.

The other night I texted Breck and Carl and I said, all right, what are quickly some of the things that I deal with all the time, just you know like the stuff that's routine and so it is just sort of helps me think things through.

but there's also we have a provision that all appointees shall be residents of the city.

I know sometimes people are at times people said well what if you know do the historians have to be city residents or you know what is is that really important is that you know is it okay if someone is a historian but they live in the county so

Yes sir.

I'll just throw it there.

I think it's been very valuable to have a landscape architect as a member of the BAR.

We've been working on that for a while.

The contractors, we've lucked out where the contractors had businesses in the design control districts.

We lost Mike Ball because he moved his business out.

They don't, but I think we've always felt like we have to have a landscape architect.

I mean, since I've been on the board, I don't think we've ever not had a landscape architect, so that was the only way that we got the contractors.

I was proposing that we get rid of one of the architects in exchange for that contractor.

See you later.

Well I wonder if it could be expanded if it was it would be architect landscape architect or contractor for

or I guess it would be three.

I think we're, well, so you've got owner of business or commercial property and the design whole district is two.

Yes.

Okay.

You're odd.

Good.

I also constructed it.

You do.

I'm not sure I understand.

Well, I know, but I'm just saying he doesn't have to.

I think the way it's written, it's saying landscape architect or contractor.

There's a couple categories up here where there's two people that we have.

and I guess the conversation is if we want to, if we want one of those to be a professional contractor, we end up having to lose one of those.

So we either will only have one architect and then a contractor who just happens to live in the city, or we have one business owner and a contractor.

I understand that.

It's a Gordian knot.

It was great.

Mike had that.

He brought to the table that, well, here's what's practical, or here's a product, or he had knowledge of something.

Yet I'll say, we've been very fortunate.

Most of you are architects.

But to just look at and understand a project from the

lens that we do have to look at, it's invaluable to have the design professionals.

I think I'd be hesitant to reduce those.

But we don't have to answer tonight.

Can I ask, because I've just never really understood how the Planning Commissioner or Representative works.

Is the Planning Commission vote one of the members to be the BAR representative?

Or how does that work?

The Chair appointed me.

The Chair appointed you.

Yeah, you could have someone who just happens to live in the city and doesn't fit any of these categories.

There's actually quite a few of us.

It's a recommendation I could make and that's what we're, I think.

Okay, well why not do that?

Add a board member to it.

Then you flip a coin.

And we were all evenly agreed.

Yeah, there's challenges there.

Well, it's food for thought.

The other piece that, as you all know, Carl isn't being on the Planning Commission.

They are very involved in the zoning rewrite.

this is a discussion that not only am I hearing but he's also hearing and so it there's a he can work into his conversations with the Planning Commission but it's not a

I think this needs to be work, you know, kind of maybe work through the permutations a little bit, but I do have the opportunity the next month or two to take the code for the Historic Conservation Districts, for the ADC districts and the IPPs, so there's two codes for that.

and then the Historic Conservation District Code, ADC District and IPP Code and there's also the Entrance Corridor Code which you guys aren't involved in but to kind of evaluate and I'll get to this in the next one so we don't have to solve the I just want to make sure we can have the discussion and for example one of the things that you all have duties and responsibilities that

you know one of them being develop a preservation plan so a lot of it's not maybe always obvious but there's a lot of the preservation work or for example the CLG work in the surveys where I get feedback from you all on that I think it would be helpful to maybe have annually a more formal historic preservation plan

that we are, that Molly and I are working on.

I mean, not to the point of you saying, you know, walking toward maps and things, we have the historic preservation committee to do that.

But evaluating IPPs, are there things, the things that you all can be doing as the BAR that are unique to the BAR?

So,

I'll be sharing that with you just again, but this is the sort of, again, BAR 101 for those of you new to the group.

One of the things that, and this was my question to Carl and Brecht the other night, we're, actually I'll go ahead, sorry, go ahead, if I can go ahead.

Yeah, so we're working towards this suggestion I had to the consultants.

There's a lot of stuff that comes in.

It's just simply an inquiry.

People saying, hey, can I do this?

Or what do you guys think of that?

What do you think of artificial turf in the front yard?

And there's times where someone will say, I want to repaint my house.

It's now white.

I'm going to paint it off white.

Yeah, do it.

I put the $0 and the $100, $125 only because that's what's on the applications now.

We're not discussing the numbers.

It's just to sort of help explain that when I answer somebody's question, I'm not

asking for an application.

I'm not asking to submit a fee.

I'm kind of taking care of that informally, but still memorializing it.

And then there's administrative approvals, which are you fill out a form, you write a check, for example, if someone is working with the state for rehabilitation tax credits, I can review that project administratively.

And then of course, there's the full BAR review.

So what we have, though, in the ordinance

it doesn't, so it says administrative review.

So there's that section and up here it talks about the following or exempt from requiring COA and ordinary maintenance or repair of the exterior.

And this is where, okay, what's ordinary maintenance and repair?

When does ordinary maintenance repair?

When does the balance shift to, oh, that has to go to the BAR?

Or, oh, you have to write me a $100 check so I can say yes.

And so, for example, if someone has an asphalt shingle roof and they're in a historic district and they're putting on a new layer, I wouldn't think I'd need to bring it to the BAR.

Is that a $100 review?

Or even someone that's got an old standing seam metal roof if they're going to replace it in kind.

So yes, and so I think what we want to get to is where that's

A lot clearer.

And the, sorry, I'm going to scroll back down again, is to say like, administrative review.

So it says the repainting that existing building or structure different color.

I approve people painting their houses all the time by email or phone call, I

but this specifically says an administrative review which is that $100 application.

So that's what I'm trying to, it sounds like minutia but because it's in the ordinance if there's

If we get into arguments about something, legal is going to default to what does your ordinance say.

And it's going to be, you know, oh you let 15 people paint their front door a different color and didn't, you know, have them go to the BAR or didn't have them submit an application.

So this is one of the things we want to clarify and that's where

So this is where I was talking to Breck and Carl about, like, okay, what are, and this is not a perfect list, but it's where, you know, like a tree.

People say, hey, I want to cut down my tree, or I want to plant a new tree, or, you know, my tree is dead, can I cut it down, stuff like that, you know.

I don't think we've ever approved someone's, what do I have up there, mailbox or, you know, their house numbers.

So there's things that, this is just sort of that list I'm playing with in my head where we could kind of think about what are the things that, going back to that list of the three, you know, what goes through the BAR, what can I review with an inquiry, and what can I review with a hundred dollar administrative review.

I'm just asking you to put your thinking caps on and should we, you guys want to discuss this at length at the next meeting?

Should we have a work session?

It's like, that's why when I asked you guys, it's because it's just easier to not start with a blank sheet of paper.

And I, you know, when I sit down and go, okay, I've got to think of all the things, it's like, you know, I can't, I don't know why, it's just a mental block thing.

There's a big range here.

It is where I think we're gonna, the biggest, the most important thing I think in the guidelines we need to really, really look at is our door and window replacement.

We're losing, we're getting where people don't know what to do, so they're just replacing it and not telling us, or they're just letting things kind of fall into disrepair.

So again, not trying to ask you, I'll circulate this and just want to like, if you've got something comes to mind, it would help me just to think it through.

And if you've got some suggestions on, again, we sit in the conference room and talk through all this, what's a good means to an end here?

I think there's like just an example that popped to my mind because you offered it up was like replacing a standing seam metal roof in kind.

I'm actually getting ready to do that on a historic house that my brother and I own and we apply for tax credits.

Right.

It's not allowed.

I didn't want it anyways, but that's sort of one of those things that somebody

I think generally that you and your other staff have done a really good job of deciding what should come before the BAR and it's okay that we have items on the consent agenda.

I think those are still generally projects that we should be aware of and have the opportunity to.

So I wouldn't make that a goal is to get rid of consent agenda items.

In a city that's growing quickly and it has some remarkably large projects that are ongoing that we sometimes get pulled into the minutia especially of window and roof details that we probably could find a way to reduce the amount of time we need to spend meeting time on that.

and so if we could help.

I mean we usually have pretty clear guidance on that and if it makes it easier to make that some administrative review I could see that happening.

Yeah, I do.

And it's, it's a joke with Molly, like, if I had the time to every time I do it to write down every, you know,

then I could create a list but it's amazing how you know just keeping track of what you do sometimes becomes difficult but there are I need to because what for example if someone changes their roof and they'll say you know I'm doing that you know it's what's condition the roof what are you replacing it with etc etc you know half-round gutter half-round gutter etc no roof cap and then I apply that say you can do it

and then here are the requirements that I want.

I need to make sure that the code allows me, if it is that sort of informal okay, that I still have some purview over that.

Like, you know, it can't be, oh, well you told them they could do it over an email, that means they do whatever they want.

Well, we can't see what's in your email inbox, and we don't want to.

Well, I'm certainly happy to help you brainstorm.

I like that idea.

So then, the next up is

And this, I think, is helpful for only give me 15 more minutes.

Yeah, they're on this week.

So good things happening there.

So this is where kind of germane to the mall committee discussion.

And I will say that the mall committee is not making decisions.

The idea is that

50 years ago, there was this idea to create them all and the results and sort of the evolution of it.

And we're now looking at it again and not saying, looking at new thinking as it moves forward, as it changes, as it continues to evolve, what things are good, what things aren't, and to kind of give counsel some

a range of decision making.

So, but the BAR still has design review purview over them all.

And it's, you know, as an example, you know, we've got places where the potted plants, you know, look very nice and then there's places where it's, you know, an assortment of things.

Not really anything in the guidelines about that.

There are

you know it's just sort of a menagerie of things and I think that what you know one of the things that I know on the design guidelines will work towards updates but I do think we need to take a look at them all

in the immediate and try to have at least some working guidelines, like what we did with the lighting in a 3000K and dimmable.

And this might be, I know Carl, how many years now have we talked about a walk on them all?

And so, for example, you know, the keg, you know, or not the cow, the cow horse trough, right?

Is that acceptable as a planter?

You know, and so it may, there are things that aren't necessarily in the guidelines, but

maybe they should be.

We say everything should be silver or at least you know metal or black but we see things where the lights are held on with you know a bracket.

I'd be okay with that if it were spray-painted black.

Now maybe you all don't think so or I think zip ties should not be allowed but maybe zip ties if they're black.

So you know these are the kind of

little things that I get constant calls about.

You can't see it here, but it's like a giant wad of electrical tape.

So that's the kind of thing where I think it would be helpful to say, no, you can't do this, and here's why.

And this is obviously something

Mr. Fabio and I need to address, you know, don't touch the trees.

And then, I think the thing that's been on the list, I know for a couple months is, but I get a lot of questions about catenary lights.

This is what I say.

That is a, it's like a spider, yeah, just sort of.

So,

Now, for example, umbrellas, we say one color.

Well, maybe, you know, they're at least two different colors, or maybe that's okay.

So again, these are the kind of the mall questions where I need to kind of walk them all and go, good, bad, does, should we let it happen?

Or should it never happen?

And then the, just to jump to the lights, so

Yeah, this is, we've seen that we're, I would say cut that off short, but where is my

So I had something about, yeah, we like the rods, but I don't like when they look bent, although that's just me.

You all might say, ah, who cares?

But where I've come down is, to me, these are not acceptable.

I kind of love what's outside the whiskey jar.

You'd like that?

No, that's the Bay Badero's cool package from the whiskey jar.

So this is what I've been meaning to bring to you guys for some decision making.

And I'm just introducing it tonight because we have a short agenda.

But I need to add it as kind of an action with sort of a formal yes, no, go through it.

And then I know that at least I have a policy that I can fall back on.

It's not me just saying I think the BAR yes or no.

And then the last one is that I'm getting questions about Shading and umbrellas are Difficult to deal with on this particular on the side streets because they get take a lot of wind what?

Jack Brown's for example asked what kind of sunscreens shading and my I didn't

give an answer, but I started to say if it goes up during the day and it comes down at the end of the day, there's a lot of opportunities, but it's the thing that starts to go up and stays up all day.

Definitely, I would say nothing connected to the building.

I mean, it's really something standalone.

I don't know, it's something to give some thought to and I don't know if you all have any strong opinions because I do have two requests in right now for what can we put up.

So I'll ask you informally if you have any thoughts on that, but otherwise that's all I have.

That's all I have on my list.

Just said to give you an overview.

So thoughts on sunshades?

Well, I got a few thoughts.

That's why you're here.

Yeah.

So

It's a gray area, right?

You don't want to put restrictions like, okay, yeah, that looks great, but again, you don't want it all to look the same, right?

Because then what's the difference between your spot and your spot and your spot?

You would hope that you'd put it in the owner of the business's hands to make sure, hey, let's make sure this looks good.

Well, I differ with that.

And I probably agree with what you agree with if I'm thinking what you're thinking.

It's your building.

Yeah, exactly.

You almost want to put it in the public's hand.

When I say that to a business owner, which is scary at times, and that's why we're here, so that people don't do something that takes away from what we're trying to do as a feel for the downtown mall.

This might not be popular, but it's really hard to go to a business owner and say, hey, you know that electrical tape you got right there?

That looks terrible.

Well, he could point at about nine other things on the mall that the city hasn't done.

So, eh, sorry, you know?

So, that's the reality of it, you know?

So I think that's where you're at.

It's hard to go to somebody when you're, you know, when your kitchen isn't clean to go yell at someone else's kitchen.

Sorry.

So, you know, and there's a lot of problems on the mall, you know, and it doesn't necessarily mean all aesthetic either.

So you're dealing with, you're going to deal with a lot of emotion with that type of stuff.

Now, if they want to put up a

You know, a pink sunscreen that looks terrible, well, no.

You know, that's when someone needs to step in and say, hey, that's not a good idea.

But if it's functional and it's something that they can afford that makes it look good and they can use it, I'm all for it.

You know, you gotta be pro-business with that within reason is my stand on stuff like this.

Now, you would hope that a business owner or whoever they are as far as a GM or whoever is working that store, whatever store it is, whether it's a restaurant or whatever, takes some pride, you know?

And I know that's kind of a foreign thing sometimes, but

It's just remembering that the mall is a public space belongs to the city of Charlottesville citizens and there's been a lot of consternation about the overall privatization of some of these spaces that being said Everyone wants to support the business community and the vitality that they bring to the mall if those are things go in any and my personal feeling is that

the business community might welcome a little bit more clarity about how to do this or even that some of these elements are actually owned by and managed by the city so that there is some consistency whether it's the you know the ABC fences or some of the furniture or lighting those are some things that I think could use some standardization

It's a subtle way to maybe reduce the amount of elements or the variety of elements so that it feels like the mall belongs to everyone.

I can't imagine that there would be a push for some way to customize something to differentiate.

the awnings or the umbrellas or a particular, maybe there's a common planter, but people could plant them in different ways.

I think the difficult thing is that the mall, the evolution of the cafe spaces had been a lot less than they were.

They were up only a certain point of the year and then everything was removed.

They've become somewhat of a space that's leased from the mall, but they've become almost like year-round storage places.

Oh, it's wintertime.

Well, all this stuff's still there.

They used to be removed in that off-season.

That's a city enforcement issue.

I agree with you.

I think there needs, and that's why I say it's a gray area, because there should be some guidelines, but I do still think there needs to be room for that individual process.

Because here's the thing, maybe Jack Brown's, I don't know their money situation, and I think we need to look at that.

I think that's part of what we're talking about with having a contractor.

You've got to look at those things, and those are part of the business, and saying, hey, this is what we can afford, does this work?

All right, it doesn't.

Well, what about this?

And be able to have those options for those business owners to come in and not just saying, you got to go with this or not.

Hey, yes, we strongly suggest this, but then what else are you bringing?

So I don't mean to talk out of both sides of my mouth with that, but I think there's just got to be that kind of asterisk, unfortunately.

And I think that's why we're here, is to kind of guide people in saying, eh,

No, we don't want that sign up or let's go this way and kind of do it within the guidelines.

We get that a lot.

Everybody wants sort of the same playing field, but they are, enforcement's a problem because things kind of, yeah, if we start at one end of the ball and walked it would be, we'd have to change an awful lot, but that's where like the first question was like, okay,

Should we even be raising hell about this?

Do I care if the planters are different colors?

The guidelines say so, but maybe it doesn't matter.

Maybe some things need to be updated.

But it's really interesting that sometimes the question you think you've anticipated every permutation and someone will ask and I'll be like

You know, I had no idea.

Because it's on me.

I have a lot of administrative say on the mall.

Sometimes I just don't know what to say.

The shading thing is going to be a big one.

Yeah, that's a tough space there with that, especially with, like you said, it's a wind tunnel.

Umbrellas stink.

They're not fun to deal with.

But you don't get in the restaurant industry because it's easy.

You figure it out and you make it work.

But you hope that

You hope owners are going to pick something that looks nice and that they don't.

I think one of the pictures of one of my places was there and the pot, you know, looks, there was rain in it I think or something.

Yeah, we've had, I mean, sometimes the signage where, you know, someone's taped signs to their polls or that we had political signs, you know.

The fake plants, you know, that's an easy one.

This is helpful.

I think I said I need to put it together into something really precise, not to get, you know, restrictive, but to say here are really the things people have asked me, where are we?

Is there a downtown mall merchants association?

I think that's one mechanism where they can

work together and all kind of come to a communal agreement on like on that side of the fence of you know here's things hey I'm gonna hold you to a standard you hold me to a standard type of thing I think that the balance is finding a way to let the business owners have their individuality but recognizing that the common thread is that they're all on the downtown mall you know and I think something that everybody would appreciate is

The Christmas lights look pretty cheap.

This is helpful.

I do know one that might be coming your way, and I think I had mentioned this maybe a year ago, but some of the old phantom signs, people have asked about restoring them.

And the ordinance says

You can restore an old sign if it's for a business that's still in that location.

That's their sign.

They can restore it.

But the question, for example, of the Koch sign that's on the wall opposite the unfinished building.

Yeah.

There's one kind of by...

where you're at on Main Street, the Steakhouse.

I think that is one of the coolest things.

Restoring signs around the country that that's where it gets so to me where I've been with this is it's a sign and you're repainting it And that is for not a business.

It's there but what I've encouraged the the downtown group and Really had some neat ideas about doing things and my suggestion was what about or actually Robert Watkins suggested a you know a

projecting an image on the sign of something new.

And there are other ghost signs around town you could do that.

So it's illuminating what it used to look like, but it's not altering that.

but from the I asked DHR and they were actually they've sort of gotten torn on that because there's been again that sort of business investment in sort of the revitalization and things and so there's no solid answer but my feeling is it's fake

You know, history.

But it may be coming to you, so give it some thought.

Yeah.

So it was, I grew up in Roanoke and some of the old ads are some of the most important part in downtown Roanoke, the old Dr. Pepper sign and the You Need a Biscuit ad that's like four stories tall.

Yeah removal is not ideal but would you you can't touch it up so it looks you know how do you when do you cross the line to it looks just like a new sign or do you leave it alone?

So there's your homework, lots of it.

Guys, thank you.

David Timmerman I know had something came up, same with Cheri, and I think those are the only two we're missing.

Just a heads up, so we've got module two out, and I guess we sort of started this conversation in the other room.

Jeff, you seem a little worried about

I'm not worried, so if anybody else is worried, maybe try to convince me or help me figure out why I should be worried.

To me, we're an overlay and we just keep doing our job no matter what the zoning says.

I get the thing about if the setbacks are a little weird,

I get that, but other than that, I'm not worried about downtown being zoned for ten stories.

That doesn't scare me at all.

I think it's the, as I said, the downtown West Main, you know, the question is primarily what, when we start to see things go up above the existing buildings

How do you distinguish as the facade continues?

Should it step back?

Should it step back?

What?

So I'm not that concerned about there.

What I'm thinking about are some of these residential districts where we have traditionally looked at what is the typical spacing?

What's the typical distance from the street?

How does that new building fit

on to that street of all those other buildings.

I get that and I guess maybe we need to make sure, or I can try and make sure in our work session that Council, is that what you're thinking?

Well that might be even trickier in the conservation districts where we have less to go on and the contrast might be more stark.

I think it's more the question of have the discussion of because if the intent is that regardless of the existing fabric of that street or block

we're building, you know, up to the then, then let us know.

So that we're not, you know, we got to adjust the guidelines and things accordingly.

There's no point in, in even having discussion if it's not going to be, you know, and I mean, just like with the slate roof at and the solar panels.

I got to do some digging on it.

What exactly did councils decision?

Do because we have other slate buildings and one in fact that I have to follow up on that people want to put solar panel on slate should I even bring it to the BA number.

So that's kind of the context is I worry it's not the right word.

I just want to make sure that we know does the

If the BAR's not going to have a job in certain decisions and certain things, then establish that.

What's the point?

And that's kind of why I'm asking.

So my work session is next week, next Tuesday.

So if there are other items, I can bring them up for discussion.

And I know there's a sensitive ear to it.

Council is sensitive to it.

And we do have planning commissioners that are very sensitive to historic preservation.

I mean one of the things I raised we talk about the front of buildings particularly in West Main but you don't so there's that sort of what's what's happening on West Main north or south yeah and on the south side yeah it faces a railroad track so it's just yeah but that's still

what someone else sees, certainly on the north side where that gray just drops after what a hundred feet or so off of West Main or a couple hundred feet like back by Wirtland and so but what is the back of that building and it's where I've said well you know this is why the BAR does look at all four sides because that back matters but some of the ideas are alright what are

How are those places defined such that, and not to conflict with the BAR, but where it actually is helping the BAR.

It's strengthening the BAR's position about that design.

When people say, well, what do you care about the back of the building?

Well, we care because we want that to be treated in a certain way.

So it's not just digging our heels in.

It's also saying, what are some things BAR does

that, you know, like the spacing, you know, where you got, you know, a 500 foot building, maybe there should be spacing in there.

So to make sure that that's codified to assist.

That is codified.

Does that make sense?

That's some good stuff in the code that does do that.

to the point that I was getting a little worried that it would overrule us, that we'd be, there's gonna be some regimented stuff about how wide a building facade can be, and how it has to be modulated and broken up, and how much percentage of glazing there has to be, things like that, which I think they're all good things, and my concern was just what if someone has some really good idea that doesn't match that, or always, like when Tim Moore was here,

make this part of the building lower and make this part of the building taller and he always wanted to go over what the height limit was.

Are there many IPPs on Preston?

There are what?

I can just imagine Preston being in a spot where there's going to be a tremendous amount of

The bigger lots, pressure to go up, and impacts on adjacent neighborhoods.

Well, the IPP status usually doesn't extend all the way back to the neighborhood.

At least it didn't with the dairy.

I know my neighborhood has thought about that.

I mean, that is my backyard.

No, that's true.

Counselor Payne has brought that up a couple times, worried about some of the heights allowed on Preston.

Again, I'm no help, because I'm like, make it taller, taller, and just deal with what happens behind, like do a bulk play or something.

All right, so get comments to Carl by Tuesday if you have them.

Do I hear a motion to adjourn?

So moved.

Anybody opposed?