City Council - Police Civilian Review Board Joint Work Session, 5-8:00PM   4/27/2021

Council, Mr. Boyles, this meeting is now live for your awareness.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Good afternoon.

Can you hear me?

Yes.

Hi, everyone.

Hello, Jeffrey.

Hello.

You got some awesome items on your ceiling.

Years ago, I went to France and I got that dragon in one of the flea markets.

that present, Mr. Brown, Chair Brown, we're waiting on, I guess, a few more of your members.

Yes, that's correct, Mayor Walker.

Mr. Mendez did say he was having some technical difficulties, but he would be the primary driver for our portion.

Okay, we'll just give it a couple minutes and then we'll start with our resolution and then we'll move on.

Mr. Wheeler, is there a call-in number that Mr. Mendez can utilize?

He should make sure to use his participant ID in addition to the webinar ID.

Okay, very well, thank you.

Is he able to access his email?

He's saying he, I guess he's having network issues right now.

Yeah, teams out across the city.

Mr. Brown, I'll send you that information just so you have it handy.

Great, thank you.

Robinson, would you do the roll call, please?

Vice Mayor McGill?

Here.

Councillor Hill?

Here.

Here.

We just have one item for business before we get started with the joint session with the PCRB.

And this is one reading because we've already previously voted on the CARES funding and I'll turn it over to Mr. Boyles.

Kaki, we'll let you provide any details.

We appreciate your consideration of moving this money into the emergency hotline.

May 12th is supposed to be the date.

So, Kaki, this will carry the pathway fund through that time?

Sheehy, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she,

And so I know there's been a lot of communications about budget and filling the gaps, but I think we need to look at this and the needs that people may have when we are allocating those new dollars.

So in addition to our own money, there should be some additional monies available strictly for that purpose as well.

Okay, is there a motion?

Any discussion?

Ms.

Robinson?

Councilor Hill?

Yes.

And Councilor Snook?

Yes.

Chair Brown, are you all good to go?

Mr. Wheeler, is the 434 numbers at Mr. Mendez?

Gilmore, and I've just activated her mic.

I mean, go ahead, sorry.

You need a few more minutes.

Yeah, I mean, I guess if we can go till like, I don't know, 515 or so.

Thank you.

Thank you, sir.

Looks like another phone number to join us.

Mr. Wheeler, would you happen to know if that's Mr. Mendez?

I do not, but he should be speaking shortly.

Robinson, would you take a roll call, please?

Vice Mayor Brown, I'm sorry, excuse me, Chairman Brown.

Here.

Vice Chair Mendez?

Here.

Mr. C?

He was here.

I'll move on to Mr. Watson.

Here.

We do have quorum and I believe Mr. C will pop back up at some point.

It's all yours.

I can't see the PowerPoint presentation, but if you could put that up, that would be great.

I'll let you know when it's up.

Mr. Brown, is that something you're sharing?

Oh, does that?

I don't have any PowerPoint.

Okay, let me go and find that.

Yeah, it was in the package, but it's only one part of the package.

Okay, let's go to do.

And again, thank you all for your effort.

Mr. Wheeler, do you know how I would go about... I can pull it up now, if it's just that PDF in the packet.

We're going to start on, it should be right after the City Council's business, that next page, Charlottesville Police Civilian Review.

There it is.

Mr. Mendez, the presentation is live.

I want to go to the next slide, which is called Overview.

We're there.

If we want to go on to history here.

Okay.

So at the end of this part of the presentation, I think we're scheduled for comments or questions at this point.

I'm sorry.

I mean, I have them, but they're all written down.

You were going in and out.

I've written them all down.

Okay.

So, Mr. Wheeler, turn it over to you.

And Mayor Walker, is your preference to spend up to 15 minutes?

Let's just see what it, what the numbers look like and then we'll Great.

Sean, can you hear us?

We can.

We can.

We want to be involved, and we certainly hope that we will be brought to the table so that some of these issues can be discussed with representatives who are representing those men and women, those fine men and women who are working on your streets.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

That's all.

Go ahead.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Jeff, you're on with counsel in the PCRB.

And it seems to me more appropriate for us to make comments after we have heard the opinions and views of those whose opinions and views we don't know.

Instead of- There's another comment section.

Pardon?

There's another comment section.

That's all, Brian.

Oh, okay.

Go ahead.

Thank you very much.

I don't see any other hands.

I'll open it now for counselors and questions.

She said she had hers written down.

I can hear you, but I'm getting ready to lose my headphones.

Okay.

Okay.

Lloyd, do you want to go ahead first then?

Anybody know of one?

But yeah, this is new territory.

So that could be an avenue of approach to look at for going down that particular road is the Denver model that they've created.

where they have effectively cut out the chief of police from the disciplinary process in serious cases.

The legislation requires that the board consult police chief before making and or the supervisor of the officer before making any disciplinary decisions.

But it cuts the police chief out of the decision-making chain in the sense that the police chief never makes a decision.

That is correct.

Well, under your scheme.

a rare situation in which the board would impose serious discipline if the chief made well-reasoned arguments as to why that shouldn't happen.

In other words, now it's a question of who counsel has appointed to be on this board making the decision and whether they choose to respect the chief or not.

decisions are made.

I think that after consultation is a pretty big point there.

If in a series.

I'm just trying to follow what you were just B3.

So I guess what I'm trying to figure out is

How are you going to get that?

The overall ideal would be that as a community, as community leaders, we would work to get that information so that we can properly represent the public's interest in this particular area.

You know, we're not going that far.

Am I misunderstanding you?

No, I think you have hit it on the nose, but I think if you're talking about police-involved shooting or, you know, use of force, then it's something that is liable, as in the case of Officer Yeager, to come to the attention of the Commonwealth's attorney.

How does the Commonwealth's attorney investigate?

And the major time that that happens is when we become aware that there's a criminal or civil matter involved.

But there's a related question, too, and that is how are you going to get police officers to talk to you to answer your questions?

If a policeman wants to keep his mouth shut, he's going to keep his mouth shut, whether it's an independent investigator or an IA issue.

So it's, yeah.

Who else has the authority at that point if you've got the binding disciplinary authority?

And I think that the board would be responsive to any consultation or advice given by the chief of police or the supervising office.

Well, I...

make the determination of what is possible here that it'll maybe be a better use of the hour and a half we have left.

So that's all I've got for now.

I think some of the initial discussions were that it would be a limited basis, but I don't want this entire process to be tanked on that particular issue because I think there's a lot in here that is substantive for the community as a whole.

I haven't run that by anybody else, but I think we need to change our thinking a little bit there.

That's all.

And I just want to make sure that point is emphasized.

So that's just part of, I guess, what we have to think through.

Right.

how how does that even how does that work so those are the type of things that we really have to get in I think a lot of detail about like what's even what's possible there I want to point out one more thing is that we specifically said in our ordinance draft draft ordinance that

You know, they've got a big mechanism there to investigate criminal activities, and we want that to be engaged whenever it's appropriate.

And I hear a lot of conversations that people need to have about some of the really, really in-depth parts of what oversight means for a community.

Feedback for me even mentioning that, but I've always seen this process as having to have a collaboration here on where we're going with this, and I'm concerned that that's not happening, that a lot of information has been collaborated with our police department, because they are going to be a huge component of this moving forward, and I think that we all share a desire to have accountability in our police department, but I think that to try to do this in silos is not going to be successful.

And I can, you know, and Mr. Mendez can go ahead and add to that if he desires.

We do our best.

But this stuff that is on the agenda items, I saw for the first time once it got posted.

Go ahead.

That question was presented, and obviously your position was against that, which is understandable.

So again, language is important for all of us.

So my apologies for intertwining the disciplinary aspect.

So how could we create a system in which we could get our desired outcomes is where I've been very clear, again, on how we do this and how we walk this through.

that if in fact that is a likely interpretation, we need to pass something, it seems to me, to figure out what we're doing there.

Okay, thank you.

can correct me if I'm wrong, but with regard to the grievance process itself, it's my understanding that that's something that city, city, local government will handle, but as far, you know, with regard to 9.1-601, all of it, A through F, that's the primary focus, or that was the primary focus for the board itself, not necessarily the grievance aspect.

So obviously there's something there that needs to be resolved and we will do our best.

And obviously, we know that at least one of these things has to proceed the other.

You are correct.

Those operating procedures would be that trigger point so that we can actually move forward and do the job that the General Assembly has intended.

People will know, you know, the kind of model we're proposing and we'll see it as all.

I'm just trying to figure out how do we get this conversation to help drive that next step.

you know vote on so I guess you know if we can just get the initial questions that counselor if counselor Payne and counselor McGill has any well there there's a number of questions but I guess two that popped to mind is one I mean my understanding is under the state legislation the

resolve that issue or where it just may present limitations because obviously I could see that huge deterrent for depending on the context forward or people being willing to lodge a complaint and participate.

You know, it's an ongoing question.

It would be more in the procedures aspect and in conjunction with the executive director whenever he or she is put on.

The board understands that and is working on them, but I just find it hard to disentangle the two.

earlier, essentially, you'll have more warning as to what we see as important issues.

Is that where your thinking is?

Does that make sense?

So, you know, again, I think it's, I mean, it would be nice from a community perspective, I believe, to have an ordinance in place and have that trigger of the operating procedures come subsequent to that.

in independent investigation, but without the operating procedures, it's just, if that makes sense, I, again, repeating myself, but I just, I can't disentangle the two.

that we could really get into and make some headway on and really flesh out this disciplinary power and this independent investigation aspect going forward.

And so, and that's what ultimately the community is looking for more than any, you know, the answers to more than anything.

But I think if we continue to have multiple work sessions and we go back and revise, we get the comments from the city council, then, you know, we can begin to move forward and iron out some of these, you know, maybe weak spots in the current draft.

Let me just say it.

Again, we can table the independent investigatory authority and the disciplinary authority, but some of these other key highlights, I think that we can move forward with and get something done on behalf of the community.

What could be a potential resolution to this challenge?

And so I would really encourage us to take that kind of approach with the police department and this body.

I think it's, you know, we need to, as you said, you know, expand on that and to build that bridge, which is one of the, which is one of NACOL's, you know, philosophies in all of this.

I've got some questions.

We can, that was better.

Maybe just hit your video off and Sena while you're talking.

All right, can you hear me now?

Yes.

I can't wrap my head around the powers until I understand how the powers will be executed.

Can I start answering?

I did.

You'll note in the last, I believe, the last section of our draft ordinance that we've proposed, re-proposed an idea that was put in the initial ordinance from the initial board for having respect.

Now,

But yes, it's, it's, it's one that we have already sort of taken into account.

And again, speaking for me, I would fully expect that the executive director, once he or she is placed, would take over all of that and kind of answer some of those more privacy related questions.

So who does the hearings?

Good.

So then that's becomes foiable, correct?

And then there are other aspects, deliberative aspects, where we get into some of the more privacy informations that would be in closed session.

But right now, the identifiable exemptions all belong to records that come through the police department.

You proposed that idea, I think, in maybe our last meeting, the last training we had.

on the face of the FOIA laws would apply.

Or does that go away upon them giving us a copy of the complaint?

And so that protection is there under the provisions of the current ordinance due to the provisions that would require the CRB to enter into a confidentiality agreement.

And even the stuff that they get, if it was asked through by FOIA as a public board of commission, it still would be subject to the same, they would, redactions for personal identifying information that I would not necessarily be subject to because it wouldn't be released.

Even on that issue, there are all sorts of nuances that have to be resolved in the operating procedures, taking into account, you know, what city council and the civilian review board want to accomplish in the public realm.

Does that have any, would that have any effect on FOIA ability?

you know, managed properly, but that doesn't really necessarily deal with the FOIA issue of whether an exemption applies.

Thank you.

real quick, not to be FOIA into a dead horse, but how cumbersome is it up in Richmond to, I don't know, change or expand FOIA laws now to cover police oversight boards, now that we're kind of a new phenomenon with more power?

from the FOIA Advisory Council that addresses whether or not any of the existing exemptions that are out there would apply to certain types of information.

is probably the, I guess, what we are really here to talk about today.

having the IT department develop an approach to share complaints that are pre-redacted, which is one way of collaborating, which I think that's very constructive.

and they can speak to it, but beyond what I've already been providing, I have not been asked for anything except they want every single complaint in which I've been very clear people should have the option to decide how they want their complaint to be heard if we're talking about empowerment and justice in a system.

Deciding to not send a complaint to the PCRB?

It might be four or five.

There may have been maybe two or three for last year.

I sent that to the PCRB in January, I believe it was, to say look at our new form and got no feedback saying that it was confusing or anything about it was inherently opaque or that the system was opaque or that the forms are difficult.

Those are just some of the thoughts that I have.

And then I think it's a matter of sort of, you know, let's work on the operating procedures and let's do it with the goodwill.

We have to look at it also from the standpoint of whether there's trust from the police community in the board and what the board does as well.

I just want to be clear what I meant about collaboration that we'll do the best that we can and the executive director will be charged with whatever operating procedures we come up with but not to say that we're going to be skipping down the primrose path And I hope I wasn't

I think that those type of things are how we get to a better, you know, get to an agreement.

in terms of truly independent legal counsel.

Like what, how can the city okay them being able to participate in discussions around creating the ordinance operating procedures and attending meetings regarding without going through that, you know, changing the, because that's one of the things we have to have a discussion about.

And I think relative to those procedures, which is where all of the really important details are, that could be really important for everyone.

We are all here to say that the legal counsel that they need to change the ordinance, develop the operating procedures, and attend future meetings, is that something that we can make a decision on?

No, it would actually, you'd have to amend your current ordinance, but it would be just the one section in the current ordinance, and if that's something council's interested in, you know, I can bring forward just that one change to the current ordinance as quickly as possible.

Now, policy recommendation is awfully broad.

Wonderful to just get that provision out of the way and updated so that we don't have concerns over whether there's authority to pay for the services that they're rendered that aren't on that list of power.

Mr. Robertson, go ahead.

No, I just said shut.

Doesn't it not make sense to get the entire thing and have the trigger point be the operating procedures?

That's for you and city council to work out.

Very well.

No.

But that would be an easy change.

just for the public that's been waiting, we can, who may not be able to stay, let's open it back up for them and then see how that section goes and then make just final comments and next steps.

You've got three minutes.

Y'all have a good night.

Thank you.

Kate, you're on.

Is she still here?

if the complaint comes in through the board itself and the board forwards that complaint to the police department, it's not necessarily protected at least to the level of detail that came through the civilian review board.

Or is it like a hearing review?

There's a whole process in the ordinance that specifies how that would happen.

the complaint form, I know I have a bug out my you know what about the complaint form, but the that you copied it from Fairfax and the first time you said that I looked it up and I couldn't find the opt-in opt-out on their forms either Fairfax County or Fairfax City and tonight I did it again and there's no opt-in opt-out on their forms.

If you look on their auditor, their auditor's forms, the ones that they're sending in, you can't find Fairfax except a simple fill-in, so go check the auditor's one, that's where it came from.

The forms that I looked at were online for anybody to fill out, the complaint form.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

Thank you.

Mayor Walker, next up is Don Gathers, who will be followed by Gloria Beard.

Again, thank you for your work and your volunteerism and your dedication.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

Can you hear me?

We can.

Thank you all.

Thank you.

Sarah, go ahead.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Go ahead, Walt.

Thanks for your time.

Go ahead.

So thank you.

Thank you.

And I don't think it's about that.