Planning Commission Regular Meeting   9/12/2023

My name is Kevin McDermott.

I'm the acting planning director here.

Our chair and vice chair are absent from the meeting.

So I'm going to be holding a call in for nominations for an acting chair for the evening here in a second.

But I'll go ahead and start off with a call to order.

Yes.

Ms.

Mr. Bivins?

Here.

Second.

OK, sounds like we have a nomination of Commissioner Bivins to be acting chair.

Can I have a motion to appoint Chair Bivins or Commissioner Bivins is the chair?

Who moved?

Second.

OK.

Yes.

Ms.

Firehock?

Yes.

Motion passes.

Good evening, everyone.

Thank you for being here for the planning commission, Albemarle County Planning Commission meeting, September 12th, a year right here in Lane High School.

So welcome, everyone.

Are there other matters not listed on the agenda from the public?

And if so, would you please come forward and state your name and the location in which you reside?

There's no one on Zoom?

If everyone would turn their attention to the consent agenda, we have two items to consider.

Does anyone care to pull any of those items from the consent agenda this evening?

I'd entertain a motion to move forward and accept those items on the consent agenda, please.

So moved.

Second.

Second.

Madam, would you call the roll?

Yes.

Mr. Murray?

Aye.

Ms.

Firehock?

Ms.

Firehock?

Aye.

Sorry.

Thank you.

This passes.

Moving on to our first item in the public hearing, and that's hearing from staff for ZTA 2023-03, residential density bonus factors.

Yes, I'm Bill Fritz.

I'm with the Community Development Office.

And this is a zoning text amendment that deals with the residential bonus factors.

The zoning ordinance has a provision in it that allows for density to be increased if certain things are done that are of community benefit.

For example, providing affordable housing or preserving wooded areas.

The ordinance also states that, oops, if I plug it in, it would work better is what you're telling me.

The zoning ordinance also states that the density that is achieved via use of the residential density bonus cannot exceed the density recommended in the comprehensive plan.

The zoning administrator made a determination that a project came in and wanted to make use of residential density bonus and the property was in an area designated as office research and development flex light industrial.

That area does not have a cap on the residential density.

Residential is a secondary use in that comprehensive plan area.

So the zoning administrator made a determination that you couldn't use the density bonus because the comprehensive plan did not recommend a density and therefore an increase in the density would be above that in the comprehensive plan.

The Board of Zoning Appeals heard an appeal and decided that in fact the density bonus could be used.

So staff believes that the appropriate thing to do would be to amend the ordinance to achieve the goals of the comprehensive plan.

So we have a very simple change.

Because of it, we had to sort of reformat the text.

But the key of it, it adds a simple sentence.

If no density range or maximum density is shown in the comprehensive plan, no bonus factor may be applied.

So it just makes it very clear density is not to exceed what's recommended in the comprehensive plan.

That's it.

We're recommending approval, and we have two possible motions for you.

Thank you.

I did have a question on the discussion materials around housing affordability.

I do realize this hasn't happened a lot.

This is the first time that we're aware of that anyone has done that.

We know that we have denied projects who've wanted to use bonus density in the past.

We've said, no, you cannot apply for it.

They did not appeal that.

So one of the things that we're talking about is we've made all the other staff who are working on the bonus, excuse me, working on the comprehensive plan aware of this text amendment.

The comprehensive plan could say, for example, density is capped at 16 units or 15 units per acre unless you provide affordable housing.

So this is in reference to the existing conference of plan rather than the one coming up.

Okay, yeah, the, the bit where it would prevent the use of bonus provision for affordable housing doesn't seem like the kind of priority we have right now.

Just to be also to be clear, you're right.

And that's why that's mentioned in the staff report.

What's not mentioned in the staff report is the applicant still has the property owner still has the option of applying for a rezoning to achieve the increase in density using affordable housing as a justification to achieve that rezoning.

Great.

OK.

OK.

I've been hearing nothing from the commissioners at the moment, and I will open up and hear from the public.

If there's someone who'd like to speak to us, would you please come forward and remember to state your name and where you're located and welcome.

You most likely know the drill.

There are three lights on the dais, and the green one starts your three minutes, and then from there, the yellow one is you're in the middle of that, and the red one, we will ask you to stop.

My name is Whit Graves.

I currently live at 2385 Corals Road and I am the applicant that ended up in front of the BCA and got the determination.

Actually, Robin and JT Maxwell are the property's owners.

I am with Evergreen Home Builders and I am partnering with them on that property.

I want to take a moment and speak to my larger comments about this ZTA change.

Sorry if that's not the right term, but I also want to point out how it would specifically impact our project, just so you can consider that.

Under the buy right development, we get 21 units.

With the bonus factors, we've bumped up to 28 units, and those seven units are affordable units.

If we did not have those bonus factors, we would then only have 21 units and they would all be market rate units and not affordable.

The bonus factors are really one of the only tools that we have to find creative ways to increase density in Albemarle County.

And so I feel like that on our particular project, not having this available to us would take away affordable housing units that we can put on the market.

I also don't know one of my questions or what I hope we can maybe get some clarity on was whether our particular project would be grandfathered in because we have a preliminary site plan approval based on our BZA meeting or if we would then be back to 21 units and have to redesign our project.

That's probably a conversation for a different time, but I thought it would put it out there as a question.

I do want to make a couple points to the larger issue tonight in seeking to eliminate the use of bonus factors on these properties that have comprehensive plan designation listed as residential as a residential recommended use but not listed as specific density range affiliated with that use.

Sorry, I'm reading from my notes.

This is disproportionately and unfairly impacts property subject to Places 29 Master Plan and the Southern and Western Neighborhoods Master Plan as these two are the only two master plans that have land use designation that's not listed as residential as a recommended use but don't provide density ranges.

The two most recently updated master plans, Crozet Master Plan and Pantops Master Plan, list density ranges for land use designations such as office R&D, flex light industrial, and commercial mixed use that list residential as a recommended use.

Properties within the Places 29 plan and the Southern Western Neighborhoods plans are unfairly impacted simply because their master plans, in my opinion, haven't been updated in more than eight years.

So I want you all to think about our project specifically and then I want you to think about how it might impact other projects.

We are currently applying for a rezoning to take it from R6 to R15 to increase that density.

But that does take a lot of time.

That adds a year to the project, which ultimately makes it that much harder to achieve.

So we just requested, well, I request that you deny the ZTA or at a minimum enact a deferral to allow additional time for property owners impacted by this ZTA to contemplate how it might impact the property.

Thank you.

Are there additional?

Are there additional individuals who would like to speak to this matter?

Thank you.

Sure.

There are two main comments that I heard.

One is how it affects this particular project.

If they've received initial site plan approval, they were approved under the prior ordinance and can proceed under the prior ordinance as long as they remain vested.

So as long as that remains valid.

The other issue is how it may disproportionately affect Places 29.

In looking at the action that the Board of Zoning Appeals took, it is theoretically possible, based on the way they made their decision, that this would apply across a much broader range of comprehensive plan designations.

And this would apply to all properties that are conventionally zoned, so not without proffers, with not planned developments,

that are in comprehensive plan designations of open space, for example.

And there are properties that are conventionally zoned that have open space designation on them.

Question?

I'm wondering if you could get into the weeds a little bit more.

I know that we're not making a zoning decision on this case that was used as an example, because that's already done.

But I'm trying to understand better, what were the bonus density factors they used?

I don't know.

I don't remember the factors.

Correct.

We view the zoning text ordinance as a tool to implement the recommendations of the comprehensive plan and if the comprehensive plan isn't recommending a density

above and beyond that the bonus factor shouldn't be administratively applied.

OK, and then just a quick follow up.

So the issue here is that I was trying to make sense of the testimony here.

Is it the case then that, is it true what they said or how would you interpret what they said about the

places where their density is not specified, where they're saying there isn't a range, it just says residential.

Yes, no, why?

Yes and no.

It's really what is the intent of the Board of Supervisors, is the intent of the Board of Supervisors to say if your property is already, if you are rezoning the property and you want to do residential, that can be considered as a factor in the rezoning.

If the board intends that bonus density be allowed to achieve affordable housing or a particular thing, that could be written into the comprehensive plan.

But as a tool, the way the ordinance is written today, the way we have interpreted it up until this recent BZA action is

unless the comprehensive plan number is the number you can get through the bonus density.

So we're trying to bring the zoning ordinance into line with the comprehensive plan.

All right.

OK.

The question on this about, please,

Just what I'm hearing though is that like this proposal was in sort of like an R6 zone with a proposal to boost up to R15.

How does that, I mean, each of those comes with Bi-Rite residential with sort of density allowances and bonus factors that are considered.

How is this also then like office light industrial that needs this amendment to it?

I don't quite get, is it an overlay?

So, uh, let me, let me say one thing to be clear.

This is, this zoning text amendment is not about any project.

It was about a decision of the board of zoning appeal.

So I don't know the details of the project that led to the appeal.

My focus is on what the BZA did.

So, uh, the office that, that particular comprehensive plan recommendation includes office industrial includes a lot of things in it and says,

and residential as a secondary use.

I'm doing this all from memory.

There are a number of districts, a number of areas in the comprehensive plan that do that.

And it just says and residential as a secondary use.

It doesn't give a number.

Whereas if you go into low density residential, there's a range and high density, there's a range.

And then for certain areas, the comprehensive plan does list a specific range.

It says 34 units an acre.

And so if somebody came in for a bonus density,

If they qualify, they can go up to 34 dwelling units per acre.

If I might add to that, I think Mr. Fritz is hitting on the issue here in that when the comprehensive plan doesn't specify a numerical density, that's what the zoning text amendment is designed to address is when there's not a numeric density in the comprehensive plan.

For example, the Places 29 master plan,

for the office R&D Flex and Light Industrial currently specifies residential as a secondary land use in this designation, doesn't give a number.

So if I'm just looking at the zoning map, and there's, you know, purple zones that indicate, you know, particular plan development or other

shades of brown and orange that indicate different R factors.

And you would have to consider the interplay between the zoning district on the one hand and the comprehensive plan on the other.

And so is there anything else that you'd like us to know?

I'm happy to answer any questions you have.

And you still said that if there was a desired change, there's a path for that to happen.

Yes.

OK.

So this doesn't freeze out opportunities.

So there are options.

Other conversations, discussions?

No?

Are we ready to vote?

Yes.

Madam, would you call the roll, please?

I'm sorry.

Has there been a motion?

I made a motion.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Yeah, I have to give you something to vote on.

Yeah, give you something to vote on.

Would somebody like to thank you?

There are the possible motions.

Would someone care to make one or one of the two?

I move to recommend the approval of CTA 202300 residential density bonus factor with the conditions contained in Article 2.

Second.

So it's been moved and seconded.

Is there any further discussion?

Madam, now.

I'm getting back into the role here.

You have to excuse me.

It's been a couple of years since I've had to have this kind of attention.

Yes.

Ms.

Mr. Moore?

Aye.

Thank you.

That's passed and we will now move on to the next item of our public hearing this this evening.

And that's SP202304, Briary Creek Farm or or hope to be known as Prevention Farm.

And there's two items there.

We'll be doing the presentation on both and I'm assuming you're going to be doing the public hearing at the same time?

So there are two special use permits in Albemarle County.

The docks, boating, beaches on the lake require a special use permit because they're in the floodplain.

The boarding camp also requires a special use permit.

The application also includes a central water and sewer system.

That request, the central water and sewer system, was reviewed only by the Board of Supervisors.

It isn't before the Planning Commission tonight.

The applicant has applied for permits in Fluvanna County for a camp, a special event facility, and the central water and sewer system.

They do theirs a little bit different, and I don't remember the exact names.

I have been in contact with the Fluvanna planner to coordinate the review, the project details, identify concerns, impacts, and the public hearing with the Planning Commission in Fluvanna will likely happen in October.

So this map shows the portion of the property that's in Albemarle and Fluvanna.

This map is oriented with West at the top, North is to the right, and the portion of the project in Fluvanna I've shaded in red for you.

All the orientation of the maps that's in your packet and will be presented to you tonight is the same.

So Albemarle is to the left here.

It just fits on a page much better.

So what's going on in Albemarle?

What's going on with this project?

Well, there's an entrance highlighted for you here that's in Fluvanna.

There's an exit that's also in Fluvanna.

There's emergency access also in Fluvanna.

There are pastures which are in both Albemarle and Fluvanna.

There's an arts and craft house that's in Albemarle County.

There's a fitness facility, beach and docks.

There's a pool facility.

There's a dining facility with a camp store, beaches, and docks.

Dots should be bigger than that, but it's all in that basic area.

There's a health and wellness facility, and there's a meadow.

There will also be trails provided throughout the property, including on the south side of the lake, the left side of this map.

The applicant has submitted an extensive application information for both special use permits and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

The information and plans submitted have been reviewed and staff is recommending approval of both applications.

The project will require site plan approval.

This process will address stormwater issues, mark the extent of the WPO buffers and ensure that access, health, safety and fire safety issues are addressed.

Sorry, I left off one thing.

The areas here, this is where the cabins are.

So I'll just do that again.

So that's where the cabins are in Albemarle County.

That's fine.

I think we can tease it out if necessary.

Great.

Yeah, I've got one question.

Please.

I believe it's 54.

Thanks.

Okay, it's hard for me to tell from the, I did look at the entire application.

The only buffer will be, they will meet the 100-foot buffer.

And when you look through their application information, that's actually shown in the application information in that big 115-page document that's in there.

And then the docks as our parking.

So when you look at the when you look at the plan, you can see there is some parking, but it's not within the buffer.

It's it's back away from the buffer.

The only thing that would be permitted within the buffer is going to be the docs and the water related activities which can include the

the racks and storage for canoes, kayaks, things like that.

Or the roads, do we know if the roads will be gravel or... They'll be paved.

They will need to be surface stable.

We believe that based on my evaluation, not done the site plan, but knowing what I know, I believe they will have to be paved throughout in order to achieve the fire access.

We may be able to go with some other, we'll work with them though, but it'll have to be stabilized.

I'm going to pass for now.

Yeah, another question I had is about reversibility.

So, um if sorry, um it's about reversibility.

If if for some

Then what would be the fate of these cabins?

What is the plan for returning it back to its original state?

There is no plan.

I mean, they could be demolished, but there is no plan to reclaim the property to an agricultural operation.

Thanks, Bill.

Presentations.

Because I thought I saw a The only access, the only place where this fronts, where it fronts Public Road is right along here in Albemarle County.

That very top right portion

That's the only portion that fronts where the property has frontage on Rolling Road.

But that's not currently used as an access?

No, no, the access, the current access is down here.

There's access down here.

There's access down here.

There's access here.

Excuse me, there is no access here.

The access is farther down here.

Thank you.

So that information's in the packet.

They're looking at a variety of number of bedrooms and kitchen styles and layouts and things like that.

Obviously, we don't have any building plans yet.

So then another question I have.

That was an issue of this, that was a topic of discussion during the, there were two community meetings for this, that was brought up.

That is true.

Fire Rescue has been involved in this and one of the

The one thing that this has that a lot of developments don't have is very good water access so they can put in dry hydrants and access to the lakes to give that firefighting ability.

OK, thank you.

It's a total of 250 and that's one of the things with coordinating with Fluvanna County.

Fluvanna is looking at a condition of 50 on theirs and we're looking at a condition of 200 on ours.

And if you look at, for example, if you look at the conditions, even have some conditions to say that the facilities on site can only be used by those staying in Cabins and Albemarle and Fluvanna, they're looking at having similar language for

Albemarle, Florida.

So we're conjoined in that way.

Thank you.

Just one that sort of came in by email that I was just going to echo and find out more if there's plans is accessing it.

I realize the entrances are from Savannah, but in terms of getting to say amenities in Scottsville or otherwise, there's concern about Briary Creek Road being going, fording across an actual creek.

There are no plans for improvement to the crossing.

Anything else before we go to the public?

Open it up and hear from the applicant.

And please, whoever comes to present, if you would remember to state your name and the company.

And you perhaps heard the drill on the box there.

So you have a green light and then you have a yellow light and then you have a red light.

And we're hoping that you're close to being finished when the red light comes on.

My screen's frozen, so I'll have to work from up here if you don't mind.

Good evening, commissioners.

First off, I'd like to say thank you for your time and for making consideration for our project.

My name's Bill Rafool.

I'm Senior Vice President of Development for Sun Communities, Inc., which is the applicant for the proposed project.

I'm joined this evening by our local council, Steve Blaine, our civil engineer, Greg Schmidt from Kimley Horn.

In the event that you have additional questions, they'll be available to answer them on a technical level if needed.

To start by introducing our company, let's see if I can make this work here.

Look at this.

You should just be able to use the right and left arrow keys to advance page by page.

So Sun Communities, Inc.

was founded in 1975.

by our current CEO's father.

We went public in 1993.

We have grown today to own and steward over 670 properties in the United States, Ontario, and the United Kingdom.

Despite our size, we uniquely operate very much like a family company.

As I noted, the CEO of the company is the son of the founder of the company and his son, who works with us here on this particular project.

I mention that because this project is unlike all but maybe one other project in our entire portfolio.

It represents the passion of our CEO for the outdoors, for connecting people with nature.

It's born from his childhood growing up at summer camps.

A few years back, we acquired a community called El Capitan Canyon from a gentleman who we've known for decades through our company.

and who has uniquely positioned this property in Santa Barbara to create a very special outdoor experience, something that connected very well with Gary, our CEO, on a very existential level.

We have been chosen by that man to steward his legacy and we have selectively looked for other opportunities around the country to continue to extend that mission.

This particular property happened to be listed for sale, so it was brought to our attention.

I would almost say that it sought us out.

It's a beautiful 750 acre piece of property.

It is exactly what allows us to create exceptional places for people to connect with nature.

So I would start also by saying that we've taken great care to try to align

the development of this piece of property with the vision for the rural area in Albemarle County.

The first place we started was the comprehensive plan.

And we understand the vision for the comprehensive plan to be ultimately about rural preservation, development of agricultural resources, scenic preservation, making sure that the visitor experience for people who come to rural Albemarle County is reflective of that culture and heritage.

and everything that we've done to date has been meant to try and take this property, reflect that, enhance it, and provide an opportunity for people to come and enjoy that while preserving as much of its natural character as is feasible and possible.

So we'll get right into the program.

There are a number of elements that are proposed here and Bill was kind enough to provide a very high level overview of many of the improvements that are identified on the property but ultimately what's proposed here are camping cottages and we will have an opportunity to review sort of an aesthetic precedent study that talks a little bit about the architectural inspiration that will inform as we develop.

Outdoor recreation, hiking and biking, horseback riding,

The intention is to have a bonafide agricultural operation.

Right now there's cattle on the property, they have a calving operation, every small calving operation, hay.

They have small vineyards down the property currently.

Our intention would be to develop the agricultural resources to be a working farm that people can interact with on the property.

In addition to that, rural preservation is the key.

Our experience for the guests that we would hope to entertain is the experience of authentically being in a farm environment and to be reconnected with nature.

We expect our customers will be coming from Washington DC and other large metropolitan areas with the express desire to disconnect.

So our vision ultimately not only is aligned as we presented here, but the vision of the guest experience ultimately should naturally continue to drive our incentives to keep it exactly that way.

Looking at the map here, this is the existing conditions of the property that you just saw with Bill's map minus the shading.

I think this gives a better understanding without the shading to see really how much open space there is currently on the property.

Noting that a lot of this is in Fluvanna County, the way that we've planned this isn't necessarily respective to either county per se.

It was really about maximizing the view corridors on the property, maximizing the agricultural experience,

and creating the right guest experience that again meets all of these planning principles for the property as a whole.

So project philosophy.

We've engaged a land planner.

EDSA is our landscape architect and master planner.

They aren't here with us today, but they have been present at many of our public meetings to hear public comments directly.

We also have our civil engineer again, Kimberly Horn, that's working with us on the project.

And the philosophy began

with listening to the land.

Our land planners spent an extensive amount of time on this property on foot, finding all of its natural features, taking an inventory of its natural assets, and planning around how we can use those assets and preserve them in a way that helps to balance both the preservation elements and the guest experience elements.

So as we move forward to the planning, and I apologize, oh, you will be able to see my cursor now.

This is great.

The area that you're looking at where I'm circling will ultimately be preserved in its natural state as an agricultural operation.

It's currently Hayfields.

We would anticipate this being an equestrian center where we would have a number of forces.

We would do horseback riding.

So as you're looking at the scenic corridor coming up Rolling Road here, it would ultimately look virtually identical to what it looks like today, only with the addition of horses.

We also, as we thought through the process of the arrival experience here, we are creating a one-way traffic where you come along Rolling Road, you come down Briary Creek, and it's a one-way entrance here and then a one-way exit here, again, trying to minimize the impacts to the road in this particular corner.

All of the cabins that we've located, we've located nearest to the interior of the property where it minimizes any visual impacts to the surrounding property.

We're fortunate that the property is 744 acres and so it gave us ample space to sort of spread out while still creating a visual barrier and not getting into what could potentially be a concern to the neighbors.

Speaking of the neighbors, we've held two community events.

The high level concerns that were brought up from the community were noise from events, site security and screening, conservation and traffic, and understanding I'll be running low on time here.

I'm going to touch briefly on each of these.

There is currently an event venue on the property located here.

It is a noise concern for the community currently.

We would be moving this to the interior of the property and orienting any noise related direction into the interior of the property, ultimately eliminating that concern, which was a great relief to the neighbors and to Fluvanna County.

Concerns about screening in the areas where we get a little closer to the road.

We would address this with site screening in this area.

The site security issue was located here.

There is a neighboring property owner that was concerned about potential trespassing on his property.

We've presented the idea of creating a fence line here, although it would have to be evaluated for any wildlife impacts notwithstanding.

But it's also been a condition presented on the project that we would have no trespassing signs.

We'll also have 24-hour on-site security.

Speaking of conservation, roughly 90% of this property will be preserved in open space and natural states.

You can see there's very small contained development envelopes here, and even within those development envelopes, they'll primarily be retained as landscaped areas in open space.

Again, we spoke a bit about traffic and access.

You can see the one-way traffic again meant to minimize this and also to answer a question that was raised regarding traffic.

We would work with Google and other mapping agencies or centralized mapping agencies to make sure all online traffic routing routes people away from the fjord.

I've actually had to drive through that fjord myself, so I understand the concern.

And in addition to that, we would have signage recommended to make sure that people are going in the right directions.

In terms of community benefits, again, preservation of rural character, 750 acres of which 90% of which would be preserved.

We provide needed accommodations in the rural area.

Right now there's very few places to stay that contain that outside of Airbnbs and the few lodging operations that exist.

In terms of job creation, we had an economic impact study that was created and we would create hundreds of jobs and tens of millions of dollars in economic impact.

Do you have key points that you'd like to leave us with?

Plus, if there's public comment, we'll give you another chance to come back and respond.

I appreciate that.

The key point that I'd like to leave with you is that our values and our vision are aligned for this property with what we believe the county wants to see in terms of balancing economic development with preservation of the natural character of this property.

and we're proud of having the opportunity to be able to help to showcase what you've outlined for this community.

Thank you.

Okay.

I didn't want to wait because I think there's, I don't think we have many pressing, but that's okay.

I have one, but you guys have.

All right.

In your report, you talked about, you obviously have these various dam crossings and I think there was mention made of the need to evaluate their safety.

Have you, do you also have mapped the,

Yes, of course.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

The short answer is yes.

And I can have Greg come up and evaluate very specifically what the structural engineers are evaluating currently on the property.

We anticipate having those studies.

And we've had preliminary studies conducted.

We have additional studies specifically on the regulated dams.

Yeah I just want to make sure there are no lodging proposed downstream of where the failure zone would be because under the state's dam safety act you are changing the level of dam safety that's required

You're changing the class of dam because you're putting people below it potentially.

I just want to make sure whether or not any of the because I didn't see that mapped that zone and I just want to make and not to be rude to you but I have seen other people who haven't done that and then had to change their plan because they put their

housing in the wrong place.

That's an excellent question.

And Greg, if you want to come up and maybe you can sort of address very specifically your question.

Right.

Bill has the history.

Commissioners, thank you for your time.

Greg Schmidt with Kinley-Horn.

As Bill has stated, I am the civil engineer on the project related to dam safety.

There are two regulated dams specifically that we are analyzing.

We are working with A. Morton Thomas, who does a lot of the dam safety work for the county themselves.

and they are actively engaged with DCR on completion of the dam break inundation zone study at this time.

That has not been completed to date.

And then you would be able if you found that any of the inundation zones that could happen during a failure.

And it is deceiving on the schematic drawings, but where those cottages are located, they are tens of feet above the water elevations in that area.

OK.

So.

We are analyzing it.

Yes, ma'am, that is correct.

We've located pretty much all the dam crossings where existing agricultural crossings are.

We do have a geotechnical engineer that has been out on site.

Their report is due to us in the next week or so.

Thank you.

Pointed out one neighbor, the one with the concern about the security fencing.

Is that the only house that abuts or is near the property?

On that side of the road, yes.

Are across the street, correct.

And that property that they showed the fencing on is in Fluvanna.

So that don't need to be a condition on the Fluvanna.

You're right.

Especially to prevent these maps.

Because it's on that side.

Albemarle and all these backups.

And that's one of the things that we've been coordinating.

And virtually all of the neighbors are in Fluvanna County as well.

The 620, isn't it?

The 620?

Yeah.

I think that's 620.

Thank you.

Yeah, I think he flipped.

I'll ask another question then.

Lonnie and I kind of take turns asking this question of everybody, so don't feel too special.

But what we want to know is, I heard about commitment to the land and preservation.

I even heard you say wildlife.

That was exciting for me.

Do you have any information about sustainability features that you would be introducing?

For example, are you going to have cisterns to capture roof runoff?

Are you going to use permeable pavement for any of the parking areas?

So that's an excellent question.

As a company Sun Communities is an ESG rated company.

And so as such, we have to make commitments that we are ultimately reducing our impact on the land.

And, you know, when we look at our existing portfolio, there's very limited opportunities for us to do that.

When we look at a development like this, we look at this as an opportunity to showcase those values.

So the answer is yes, I don't have specific details because we're not there in the planning process yet, but

I can give you one framework that we've been evaluating to help us to guide our planning principles is specifically BREEM community development, B-R-E-E-A-M, and many of the planning principles in terms of energy use and conservation.

As a company, we're making a commitment to get to net zero by, I believe, 2037.

Water use and conservation, wildlife and habitat management, wetland preservation, forest management, and certainly in some of our other properties fire wising and, you know, the forest management necessary to contain wildfires is very, very important to us.

But all of those principles will go into a resource management plan.

And we would look to showcase that even to our investors.

Mostly.

I look forward to seeing the details when you get to that stage.

I mean, we talked about fencing around one of the landowners because they're worried about trespass.

But then you did mention wildlife.

We have to be considerate of that.

Right.

I mean, I imagine you're going to be meeting with various natural resource professionals who work for our wonderful agencies, even the meadow that you mentioned that people may want to play in the meadow.

Even meadows need management to keep them.

I mean, if you want to have them to be biodiverse, so controlled burns, there's various things that you do to manage a meadow.

So I would be remiss if I said I was the professional to be able to speak to the specifics that you're asking.

Yes, and I apologize if this was in there somewhere and I missed it.

Give you a specific answer.

So right now our max day demand is 35 gallons per minute.

We're anticipating in accordance with the Virginia Department of Health Code for campsites, camp units, that we will be using 100 gallons per day per campsite.

That is split between two well sites.

Those well sites, the test wells have already been drilled.

They've already had drawdown tests completed.

They were drilled under a certified hydrogeologist and

Those wells are capable of producing 60 gallons per minute in a max day scenario.

Thanks.

And then the other question is, what are the average size of these cabins?

I can kind of get a visual picture of some of them,

You might need to speak in the mic because we're recording.

Thank you.

400 to 600 square feet is the current plan.

400 to 600 square feet, excuse me.

And I would also just like to clarify that there would not be kitchen facilities, like full kitchen cooking facilities.

As was noted earlier, I just recalled that from Bill's note.

And then lastly, as I asked Steph earlier, I've had friends who've had campgrounds that have gone belly up.

Well, that's a very good question.

That's certainly our problem notwithstanding.

We would never hope that a project that we would engage in would be a failure.

What I can say is that our company's resources are unmatched by any owners of any campgrounds.

and so our ability to reposition our assets is consequently similarly unmatched.

This may be more of a question for staff than the applicant, but the property is currently in land use.

You've indicated you want to keep it agricultural in nature.

I know our current land use regulations, you know, there's two acres for every home site is pulled out of land use.

What is the... I can't answer that question.

As I was just looking through listening, of course, these guys are great on environmental questions.

I was hoping to hear more about the kinds of jobs, the number of jobs for a site this size.

So, as I mentioned before, we have an economic impact study prepared for the project.

I was

Very quick in trying to answer that question within the time and I apologize for that.

The expectation is that, again, assuming full build out, up to 800 direct and indirect jobs from construction, roughly $110 million in economic output, generally from the investment in development of the project.

In terms of recurring jobs, up to 163 direct and indirect jobs.

I would think roughly 100 to 130 of those would actually be directly employed on the property.

Many of those jobs would be service related but also agricultural related.

In addition to that, we'll have management, sales, marketing professionals, and the like that support, you know, full scale, you know, boarding camp operation that you've seen here.

In terms of revenues, the expectation is that it will generate $79 million over 25 years in general fund revenues, so roughly $2.6 million a year upon stabilization, again, assuming full build-out based on this economic impact study.

So, you know, initial conversations that we had specifically with Donna Price when we were initially sort of working through our plan to make sure that, you know, what we were proposing was not crazy.

We got the indication that asking for the most that we would ever plan to do is what's appropriate.

And so we followed that principle.

We didn't pull the number 250 units out of a hat.

Our project in Santa Barbara has roughly 160 cabins.

It's entitled for an additional 100.

We would see the demand in this area similar to what we experienced there.

So the answer is yes, we believe that we may phase this, that we would probably phase this development.

100 to 150 cabins at this point.

There are certain considerations that we'll look at at the time once we have a bona fide development budget.

You know, we also have to look at sort of where natural phase lines will be drawn.

And so some of that will impact that as well.

That's why I give ourselves a range.

Is that between both counties?

Correct.

I have one weird question.

Okay.

I'm just curious.

So is your facility going to, I know this is like really like summer camp for adults in a way, but is your facility going to have say like small tour buses, like, you know, vans that eight people can get in and they all want to go winery hopping?

I'm just trying to think about what, I know you want everyone to stay there and spend their money inside the camp, but I imagine there's going to be excursions.

Right.

And I mean, to me, if you're putting people in vans and taking them around, that's less traffic.

We will definitely be offering those kinds of excursions.

And it's just I'm laughing partly because we have a research and development center where our office is in Southfield, Michigan.

And it's like our CEO's playground of all of his visions of things.

And he collects, he has been collecting these vintage

like vans and like vintage vehicles.

that he ultimately wants to repurpose for exactly this reason.

So I wish he was here to hear you ask this question.

That sounds charming.

And there is actually an antique car group that comes through the county every year, and they all go to Scottsville, the nearby town, and they all have lunch.

And all the streets are filled with vintage cars.

Oh, my god.

That would be one of those weekends.

You should have your folks come see that.

That's the problem.

That's great.

Other questions before we go?

Remember, you'll be able to ask again.

Any questions before we open up for public questions or public comment?

Just write it down.

You'll have another chance.

You'll have another chance.

Thank you.

We're going to open it up to see if there's anyone from the public or online who'd like to make comments on your project, please.

Thank you, commissioners.

Is there anyone here this evening who is signed up or who you don't have to be signed up, but who feels called to speak on this matter?

OK, I see a head shake over there from Mr. Fritz.

OK, then, sir, if you have a rare opportunity to come up here and tell us a little bit more.

You don't have a lot of time.

I think you have a couple of minutes to tell us.

If there's anything, or we have, can ask you additional questions.

So I can go back to the beginning here, but I would like you to have the opportunity to just review some of the architectural precedent imagery

And if you had any comments that you'd like to provide on any of this just for us to take notes on, and we can address any of those questions as well.

Yes, excuse me.

I wish I don't have it on my screen.

So while you're doing it, let me just be clear because your company is, as you mentioned, one of the, if not the industry leader in sort of RV sites and mobile home sites or manufactured home sites.

And so we're to understand that there will not be any RV pads at this location.

That's correct.

And we understand that there will not be manufactured homes in the

in quotes, as you have in a number of your other really lovely locations, a number of them which are in Virginia, in fact.

This will be like the place in Santa Barbara, which is actually quite handsome, I will give you that.

Thank you for that compliment.

And to answer your question, no, there will be no manufactured homes on the site.

OK, so no manufactured home and no RVs, no feedbacks.

And when people were talking about camping, I got shivers because as a Boy Scout, winter camping was the one thing that kept me from being an Eagle Scout.

And so the whole idea of having campsites out there, we're not doing that either.

Well, I appreciate that.

I just remember being in Jockey Hollow Trail with six inches of snow and that's okay for me.

I had a bit of a follow up to my question on phasing.

And so you were giving us some of the rationale for your 250, I guess it was based on some of your other projects.

Correct.

Do you also see that as the max capacity for the site?

Yes.

That 250 is what this would hold?

And part of that is a result of the desire to contain the guest experience.

There's only so many sites that you can have before our ability to provide attention to people and to not overcrowd the property itself starts to become diminished.

Thank you.

There's just one more question on sustainability or comment rather.

I assume, you know, you referenced, you know, habitat and I'm sure you know that our county has a biodiversity action plan that includes, you know, recommendations about prevention of preventing invasive species, encouraging the use of native plants.

other things like that.

So I haven't read it, but I'm aware of its existence.

And we're not strangers to having to accommodate the needs that are outlined in those biodiversity plans.

As an example, we have a project.

Granted, this was an RV resort that we developed in coastal San Diego.

It's located in the Chula Vista Master Plan Bayfront.

It is located adjacent to a National Wildlife Refuge.

We were required to create two 300 foot buffers around that property.

We had a 500 page set of conditions of approval that were necessary for us to make sure that we were complying with the biodiversity requirements of their master plan in the California Coastal Commission.

I mean, as a as a rural area resident, you know, we have big problems where I am with people who planted burning bush, or Nandina, and other commonly landscape shrubs that are not native that are actually taking over our countryside and present a big management problem.

That's an excellent suggestion and our landscape architect EDSA is also very experienced when it comes to sort of working through these biodiversity plans that you're describing, understanding what's appropriate for the site.

And a resort.

That's 151.

That's Route 151 in Nelson County, sort of one of our sister counties that has grown into distilleries and breweries and wineries.

So if you want to have a sense of what's on the southwestern side of the county, that might be a place for you to sort of spend a moment if you have a chance.

Thank you for that.

Look at the cideries.

Oh, yes, in the Saturdays.

We have all of the various ways for which you can smile at the end of your trip.

Anything else?

Anyone else?

Good question.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So on that, we are going to close the public hearing portion of this.

And we're going to commissioners.

And if, sir, if you would put up your, thank you.

I'll just comment.

I feel like I need to say something before we have any motions or votes.

I am in support of this project.

And I want to elucidate some of the reasons why.

One of the reasons is, of course, I do believe we should have some accommodation in the rural area that allows people to appreciate it and doesn't have to send them all the way back to Charlottesville.

I also think that the buffers around the property make this particular site not a detriment to its neighbors.

I also don't believe that it will generate a tremendous amount of traffic.

There have been other, I'm just making these points because there have been other campsites that I have voted no against as well as other applicants that I've discouraged

from particular sites in the county for campsites.

And in those cases, they were sites that were on extremely narrow roads, roads that were almost not wide enough for one car to get by, much less a bus, and were also sites that would definitely impair the quietude and quiet enjoyment of the countryside by the neighbors.

So I just want to make that clear.

There's another site that we had that was a campsite also that was going to be very intensive use on a much smaller parcel.

So I'm saying that because I think that this site is different because it is large enough to accommodate the level of camp development that you envision.

And it does sound like you're trying to take advantage of the site as it is.

rather than sort of turning it into a Disney resort or something.

It's much more, it sounds to me to be respectful of the landscape.

And I mean, I laughed when you talked about people from DC coming to farm because my brother embarrasses me.

I have three brothers.

They all embarrass me when they come to my country house because they go and moo at the cows.

They do all the embarrassing things with the farms next door.

So.

Yeah, they don't tip anything, but they wouldn't even know how.

But those would be the people that would be coming to your farm.

Yeah, I mean, when I first looked at this, I had some concerns.

I mean, generally when I hear about 250 cabins, the first thing that comes to my mind is a lot of things that even the cabins are being built in state parks now are bigger than my house.

So I was really pleased to hear that these would be four to 600 square feet.

I would have a very different opinion if these were the size of my house or bigger than my house.

That would be a problem for me.

I appreciate that they're not going to have full kitchens in them.

That's another thing that we're not basically putting 250 houses there when the by right density of that property is not that.

I do have some concerns about water usage that even though we're not putting 250 full houses there, we are putting the water usage of 250 houses there.

So that's a little bit concerning.

That is a concern.

You could.

I mean, the question is whether they'll have all the linens from all their bedding and whether they're going to be using an outside laundry service, you know, or whether they're putting the demand for that on the site.

I don't know.

That's the one.

Yeah.

I do have, you know,

Every time I hear also a plan for someone says, oh, and we're going to keep, we're going to add this intensive use, but we're going to keep it agricultural.

I don't actually see that as a good thing because what you're doing is it means that we're still, we have a, we have a significant tax break for properties under land use valuations.

The County is losing a lot of money for those properties.

and so if you're sort of dipping from both sides, if you have this intensive use that you've added, but then Ross is still keeping that tax break, I do find that a little bit concerning.

So for me, it would be nice to know how much is being pulled out of land use and how do we deal with those regulations?

They're really built more around homes on agricultural sites than there are cabins on agricultural sites.

How does it play out on a site like this?

Seems like a very cool state park except fancier and presumably a different price point.

That's an interesting conversation about tax breaks for agricultural use for another time.

Like my fellow commissioners, when I first went through this, I was a little concerned about the density.

I do appreciate all the answering all our questions.

However, I thought more about this than I heard the presentation.

The diversity of use that this brings to our farm and rural areas, I mean, we're becoming pretty homogenized with wineries and distilleries.

And so the ecotourism, I think it's an important use that we can certainly bring to this county.

I like the fact that it's a different use that we don't have a lot of.

We certainly may have some small scale, but nothing like this.

And the educational piece, I think it's really important as well.

People can see the value of farms.

I did, one thing you reminded me, I didn't really hear if the applicant was going to have like any interpretive signage, like, you know, this is a native meadow, this is how it's managed, this is a forest, these are the important species that we find here.

Hopefully some of that, some guided nature walks, all that stuff.

Well, I will just sort of add my own comments.

So for me, the tipping point

was the fact that this is a very serious and well-funded corporation.

And we have all seen great ideas that perhaps didn't have the cash flow behind them.

And so my sense was, when I started looking further, I will also just say, as I say, the company's website was slow to respond.

on certain issues.

And so I might suggest that in the future, before this goes before the supervisors, that perhaps there's some tuning of the website so that they don't become as annoyed as other people might become as they're trying to determine the validity of the information that's being presented to them.

but other than that there are other ways to find out about companies than their website and so for me when I saw this which I thought would have been an ambitious given some of the other things I was not I was feeling at this we actually might see this come to fruition and some of the things that we talked about for that

You know, in this area a couple of months ago, we looked at a large solar farm off of Secretary Road.

And then there's something going on on some other things in Blenheim in the county.

And so for me, this is feeling as if there's this wonderful opportunity in that part of our county to see different kinds of industry.

that actually can link in and have linkages to some of the people who live in this part of our community.

And so from that part for me, I'm seeing opportunities for some of our compatriots to have employment, to be able to invite their friends and neighbors to do something and have them with an easy striking distance from their homes.

And so for me, I was very excited to see that after I got around the

the non-responsive website.

And so I'm supportive of this too.

I'm supportive of this project, too, and have faith because of the ability of them to do some very interesting pieces.

If you do get to see the look at the one in Santa Barbara, it's done nicely.

And those among us who understand what it's like to try and deal with Southern California and the waterways there, we have a full appreciation what it's like to bring a project to completion in that part of our country.

We're the nice kids on the block compared to those regulations.

I'm willing to make a motion.

Would you please?

Is there a second?

Second.

Right.

So there are two separate applications.

I think Ms.

Firehock went to the second one first.

No, that's fine.

So we've taken that one, but then there'll be a separate motion on the water.

I'm sorry.

I was scrolling too fast.

So it's been properly moved.

It's been properly seconded by Mr. Murray.

Oh, but Mr. Moore.

They get you guys.

Can we have

Yes.

Ms.

Mr. Moore?

Aye.

I'm sorry.

I already called you.

I'm sorry.

Thank you.

That motion has been passed.

All right.

Is there a second?

Second.

That's been moved and seconded.

Is there any further discussion?

Yes.

Ms.

Firehock?

Aye.

Mr. Moore?

Thank you.

Thank you.

So gentlemen, this has been moved from us to the supervisors.

I would suggest you sit with Mr. Fritz and make sure that you have a full appreciation of what you heard this evening.

Because remember, the supervisors get a transcript of what we say.

And so in the event that they have additional questions, I would suggest you spend some time working with Mr. Fritz to make sure that everybody is on the same page.

And I'll also be sharing this with Fluvanna.

Oh, with Fluvanna.

Oh, yes.

And our cousins in Fluvanna.

which is not Louisa who just got that huge, huge project just funded down there.

So thank you.

Thank you all for your feedback.

Yes, thank you.

Quick review of the September 6th Board of Supervisors meeting.

We did go to them with the AC44 work session, same as what we had with you all the month prior to that, at the beginning of August.

And the Board of Supervisors essentially went along with all of your recommendations.

They had some, some good feedback, but agreed with, with the Planning Commission's recommendations on, on all those points.

It was a, it was a, it was a really good discussion.

It was our project.

Absolutely.

So that went really well.

We are still going through all that information to make sure we captured everything that the board had to say.

Yes, exactly.

And no surprise, the board supported that that rezoning just the same as you all did.

And there was also a public hearing for a through truck restriction on Plank Road.

This was something that we have been working on with the community for a long time.

That has to agree with it, right?

Yes.

We ask for it and then the state decides that they agree with us, they will grant that.

So we will be working with the Department of Transportation on that effort.

I'll say I looked at the board supervisor's materials that you presented to them and I thought it was really well done.

I liked how it included, sorry, it included our comments directly, you know, and there are changed language.

Thank you.

This is Plank Road going from 29 North Garden to the west over to 250.

That's the segment.

Sorry, I forgot that Plank Road does continue on the east side of 29 as well.

So no, this is only west from 29 over to 250.

So towards Batesville.

I don't know why you would shortcut that way.

It's a crazy winding road.

Crazy winding road.

I wouldn't want to take, I can barely take my Subaru that way.

I wouldn't do it.

Okay, thank you, Sam.

Right, because they don't want to deal with anything.

They just want to zoom along.

Are there committee reports, commissioners?

We did not have quorum.

Oh no, your history of preservation didn't have a quorum.

Oh, they can't slip back into that.

Back to the void.

The Hydraulic CAC, what is it called?

The Places 29 Hydraulic, I want to just call it that.

We met last night and we had two very good presentations.

So one of them will come to us at some point, but we had by

Okay, she came and had a great conversation about transportation long range planning with both the CAC members and also members of the community were there and I think there was some really good exchange that I think will be helpful for her and I think people felt as if they had an opportunity to sort of present something to a different level of government.

or a government agency.

And then we had a conversation about, which I do believe is coming to us, about High School Center 2, which is going to be located on the Albemarle High School campus, Lambs Lake campus.

And that was actually a very good conversation because I don't believe

for a number of people, A, they didn't know that they had centers.

And so there was some learning about that.

And two, we had an opportunity to talk, and it's been a while since this group's seen it, about some of the proposed traffic plans for the Lamb's Lane campus, which will get reintroduced to us when that comes.

And there's a rezoning that will come before us about putting the high school center two on the Albemarle County, on the Albemarle High School campus.

And so with that, sir, let's stop for May.

Yeah, beyond just the work session we held with the Board of Supervisors, a reminder that on October 10th, we will be holding our next work session with you all on the goals and objectives for natural historic resources and parks and recreation.

So that'll be coming to you.

We are working on our public outreach for those right now.

You can look on our website.

We've got a series of office hours that are scheduled where we will be in the building out in front of the lobby here during other events that are going on in lane.

So we're going to do that a couple times.

There's going to be some online engagement opportunities, questionnaires, things like that you can fill out.

And we're also doing pop-ups one that's coming up at the the Loop Deville celebration, which is the local celebration for the trail, the, the the RTF trail that goes around the city here.

And there's this is on National Trails Day, I believe, or National Public Lands Day on 924.

They're having a big celebration and we're going to be down at the Woolen Mills or Wool Factory where they're having one of those celebrations with our truck doing a pop-up, giving information and taking feedback from the public.

So some comments that have come up in the past several weeks around the comp plan have concerned questioning why there's not a toolkit

for sort of natural resources in the rural areas, that there are toolkits for all kinds of things.

And I guess I've seen that email traffic and people have made that comment.

Yeah, so, and I did, I think there was an email that came from

from the commission that I responded to.

I think you all saw that.

Essentially our idea is this, that the toolkits aren't just about

new development and how we can encourage new development or allow new development.

It's also intended to be about how we're protecting the environment.

So those toolkits though, we call them land use toolkits.

The land use may be related to the protection of certain resources as well, not just development of land, so protection of land.

So that's really how we're looking at it.

These, um,

I still hope we'll have a robust conversation about, we have talked about the idea of the rural area, and it's just this, you know, this giant mass, the rural area, and yet there's really distinct characteristics and different types of things going on in different parts of the county's rural area.

We will be getting into that stuff in this next phase.

I mean, just adding in on that, I did listen in on the Board of Supervisors meeting when they discussed these toolkits.

And there was a lot of really great comments.

If you haven't all listened to that meeting, it's really worth listening to.

One of the great comments, I believe it was Supervisor Andrews made, was he talked about the current comprehensive plan and how it's structured in order of importance and how

Natural Resources is actually one of the top sections because it was considered to be the most important.

And same thing with the rural areas, it was structured very close to the front because it was considered primary importance.

And my concern about the toolkits is that they relegate natural resource protection to be secondary in relation to some other use.

and so I think you come at very different solutions and you come up with very different ideas when you're thinking not what is the impact of natural resources

from housing or from this or from that.

And you think, well, how can we just start from the perspective of natural resources?

How do we protect these?

Understood.

Just a quick report from the Rio CAC as well.

Also had a presentation and conversation around long-range transportation planning, so they're making the rounds.

But also there was a request from a developer to rezone four parcels kind of between Burkemar and Woodburn, just up Woodburg Road, and kind of actually butst up to the back entrance to Agnahurt.

for about seven acres to build more than 200 residential units.

It's an apartment complex and has actually, it's a property that actually is a good candidate for redevelopment.

And the committee, the community advisory committee, honestly, mostly was, you know, they asked questions, but it was like, oh, it's actually kind of sounds good, gets to walk to school.

All right.

But you know, we'll see.

I would be remiss if I didn't sort of channel our chair, who will ask, are we looking for opportunities to get different kinds of voices, particularly around the park and recreation pieces?

So when we're looking at outreach, we're in football season.

So if there was a way to get the van to the various football places or soccer places, you would have an opportunity to talk to some young people.

Plus, I understand.

Now, I don't know if this is happening at the other two schools, but I do believe it is.

I do know that it's happening at the Journeys of the Middle School, right?

Yeah, Journeys of the Middle School.

But there actually are some fifth graders who are talking about civic involvement.

And so wouldn't it be interesting to have fifth graders have an opportunity to talk about what parks and recreation, parks and that kind of recreation means to them.

And then the third thing I would recommend is that we do sell season passes.

So perhaps we already have a built-in group of people who go to the various parks around here.

I assume we do those passes.

I believe there are season passes for the swim beaches, yes.

That would be a natural group of people to sort of tag them up to ask them how would you like to, how would you like, so we've got data which we might have easy access to and we have locations which is that time of the year where they're marching bands and doing all those kinds of things so just so you have some opportunities to bring a diverse or an eclectic group of people into this part of the conversation and that's for you Corey.

Anything else?

Great suggestions.

Thank you, Commissioner Bivins.

No, that is a work session evening.

Oh, we're going to be over there?

So, we are going to be in this room but at 4 o'clock.

What's at 4 o'clock?

This is a ZTA that we are working on right now.

So, there's a work session on that on at our next meeting.

At four o'clock in this room.

Correct.

Alright.

Hearing no objections.